Nyxu
Overseer
NaCl Elemental
Posts: 119
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Post by Nyxu on Nov 26, 2017 7:13:45 GMT
Quick thing I'd like to posit to you, oncomingstorm: With the consideration being strictly unit to unit, Bane Warriors appear to top sentinels in a lot of ways. Would it be fair to say that Cryx must live or die on its infantry, due to its generally hard-to-deliver and modifier-dependent warjacks? Just glancing at Ret, my personal experiences have been that their warjacks shine.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Nov 26, 2017 8:07:10 GMT
Quick thing I'd like to posit to you, oncomingstorm : With the consideration being strictly unit to unit, Bane Warriors appear to top sentinels in a lot of ways. Would it be fair to say that Cryx must live or die on its infantry, due to its generally hard-to-deliver and modifier-dependent warjacks? Just glancing at Ret, my personal experiences have been that their warjacks shine. I don't necessarily agree, especially with Black Industries and Slaughter Fleet Raiders being things that exist. Cryx can run a very competent combined arms list (or even a 'jack heavy list), and I think the fact that it tends to choose not to is more to do with the strength of it's units than the weakness of it's jacks. I don't actually see the better Cryx warjacks (Harrower, Desecrator, Slayer, Seether, Inflictor etc.) as being appreciably worse for their cost than Ret jacks (or any other factions' jacks, for that matter.) 12/18 defensive stats only really look bad when you're taking Khador as the measure of warjack durability, and 13/17 isn't terrible...on a heavy that costs as much as an high-cost light (I still don't understand the corruptor, I have to admit). The main difference is that Cryx doesn't have arcanists, and lacks real focus efficiency, which - coupled with how darn efficient their units are, and the fact that Cryx hasn't had a good jack theme (until recently) means you've seen less warjacks being played. I've been seeing lists with 4-5 heavies being run in Slaughter Fleet Raiders recently, though, so that could very well change. I definitely don't think that Cryx 'needs' stronger units to compensate for weaker warjacks, any more than I think they 'need' strong casters to compensate for weak units. Regardless, my point wasn't so much 'Bane Warriors are OP and must be nerfed' - though I think they could stand a point increase, at least to put them on par with sentinels - as it was to counter arguments about the 'Denny effect' - that Cryx has generally poorer stats because of the prevalence of in-faction debuffs. It's just simply not true.
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benkei
Junior Strategist
Posts: 244
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Post by benkei on Nov 26, 2017 8:18:06 GMT
Look at units like Fenblades, Kriel Warriors, Legion infantry, Protectorate Knights, you’ll start to see how darn good all babes are for thier cost. From here on I shall always call Bane units Babe units, so Babe Knights, Babe Thralls and Babe Riders it is Also, I won't even comment on the topic of Cryx warjacks when they have the best warjack themes in the game... guess it is yet another focus of their faction, right? Along with melee, ranged and magic
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Post by borderprince on Nov 26, 2017 9:38:26 GMT
The main difference is that Cryx doesn't have arcanists, and lacks real focus efficiency, which - coupled with how darn efficient their units are This might be what you meant by 'efficient', but it also ties in with Cryx's way of buffing their units, often via debuffs. Debuffs become more valuable when you have a large number of attacks on the debuffed target, and warriors can generate more attacks per point than jacks and don't use focus (which Cryx casters often want to use for spells, unlike in some factions). It can't be that Cryx jacks entirely lack focus efficiency - Seethers are very focus efficient and Cryx has jacks with Accumulator (I'm not saying that those jacks might not have other issues, but they're not lacking for focus).
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Post by welshhoppo on Nov 26, 2017 11:26:26 GMT
I just saw someone win a tourney with Coven and Seethers.
Mat8 Murderous jacks with free charges are extremely focus efficient.
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Post by killroundears on Nov 26, 2017 13:28:28 GMT
Gaspy3 being able to offer carapace and unyielding to cryx jacks simultaneously is pretty terrifying too. seriously, fear the cryx jackline
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Nov 26, 2017 15:15:23 GMT
This might be what you meant by 'efficient', but it also ties in with Cryx's way of buffing their units, often via debuffs. Debuffs become more valuable when you have a large number of attacks on the debuffed target But same is true for Buffs. You want a Unit of Buffed Targets instead of a jack usually. Same principles apply. And for a debuff its probably harder for an entire unit to put their attacks against a single target as opposed to a Jack being able to do so or a few larger targets being able to do so. Cryx also has Sirens, Soul Trappers, and now Misery cages. Focus efficiency isn't exactly their problem
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benkei
Junior Strategist
Posts: 244
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Post by benkei on Nov 26, 2017 16:04:23 GMT
Cryx jacks being bad is another lie like Cryx having a bad ranged game
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npe
Junior Strategist
Posts: 221
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Post by npe on Nov 26, 2017 17:10:42 GMT
Cryx jacks being bad is another lie like Cryx having a bad ranged game Cryx jacks are super bad until you run them in theme. I have to give PP credit for making me want to take Cryx jacks again with SFR and BI.
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benkei
Junior Strategist
Posts: 244
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Post by benkei on Nov 26, 2017 17:29:44 GMT
Wonder when Khador is getting the theme giving them nodes and SPD 6 heavies
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npe
Junior Strategist
Posts: 221
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Post by npe on Nov 26, 2017 17:36:10 GMT
Wonder when Khador is getting the theme giving them nodes and SPD 6 heavies Khador has an arc node that nobody uses. Khador also has casters with mobility, energizer and speed doubling feats. It took more than a year for Cryx to be able to take their jacks into shooting. You're barking up the wrong tree.
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benkei
Junior Strategist
Posts: 244
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Post by benkei on Nov 26, 2017 17:38:06 GMT
LOL at "Khador has an arc node" and double lol at me forgetting only Khador casters have spells while the poor Cryx ones can't help their jacks AT ALL. So your jacks were weak versus shooting? I'm gonna tell you something: that's called having a weakness like, you know, having no arc nodes/light jacks and SPD 4 jacks, but I suppose that's a novel concept when you play Cryx. Fortunately PP seems to think like you and it's trying its Firetrucking best to erase any weakness Cryx has, because reasons.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Nov 26, 2017 17:40:16 GMT
Cryx jacks being bad is another lie like Cryx having a bad ranged game Cryx jacks are super bad until you run them in theme. I have to give PP credit for making me want to take Cryx jacks again with SFR and BI. They really, really are not. The biggest issue with Cryx running Jack heavy (in the past) has been a lack of A-tier dedicated warjack casters (Gaspy3 comes close, as does Venethrax) and the fact that their best casters want to run swarms of infantry. Cryx lights are almost universally quite strong. All of the arc nodes are worth running (or would be, if the deathripper wasn't such a standout option), the Stalker is (IMO) genuinely over the top, etc. Cryx heavy jacks suffer the problem of being merely average in a faction that is chock full of standout options. They actually have weaknesses (fragility) to balance out their strengths (Speed, accuracy, hitting power) unlike many of the infantry (I literally cannot find a downside to say, Satyxis Raiders) and they take resources away from casters, who would much rather be spending that focus on extremely powerful spells. I don't per se have an issue with either BI or SFR existing, though I DO think the bonuses they give is wildly out of line with those given by other themes. Wolds in Bones of Orboros get 1 point of healing per turn, and a maximum of 16 free points...BI gets 21 free points (in jacks!) and Carapace...in a less restrictive theme. Marshalled jacks in Legions of Dawn get flank, vs. ALL Cryx jacks in SFR gaining Gang Fighter (which is very nearly as strong). I won't be surprised if either one or both of those themes ends up being dominant at some point.
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Post by macdaddy on Nov 26, 2017 17:41:15 GMT
Cryx jacks being bad is another lie like Cryx having a bad ranged game Cryx jacks are super bad until you run them in theme. I have to give PP credit for making me want to take Cryx jacks again with SFR and BI. It’s almosf like they designed those jacks with the themes in mind... IME spd6 Mat 7 Def 13 Plus a solid Pow considering faction Arm debuffs seems like a solid statline to me. Also, seethers and slayers are pretty excellent for cost. Nobody took Tharn ravagers or death wolves till the Devourer Host Theme came out and circle players think they are acceptable outside of wishing they hit a bit harder. It’s glaringly apparent the factions and thier options are designed with these themes in mind. Cryx jacks at Arm more than 21 for ranged/spells and feee strikes would be stupid. It’s already gross as is.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Nov 26, 2017 17:46:27 GMT
Cryx jacks are super bad until you run them in theme. I have to give PP credit for making me want to take Cryx jacks again with SFR and BI. It’s almosf like they designed those jacks with the themes in mind... IME spd6 Mat 7 Def 13 Plus a solid Pow considering faction Arm debuffs seems like a solid statline to me. Also, seethers and slayers are pretty excellent for cost. Nobody took Tharn ravagers or death wolves till the Devourer Host Theme came out and circle players think they are acceptable outside of wishing they hit a bit harder. It’s glaringly apparent the factions and thier options are designed with these themes in mind. Cryx jacks at Arm more than 21 for ranged/spells and feee strikes would be stupid. It’s already gross as is. I mean, they ARE more than that - Inflictors are Arm 23 shield guards in that theme, and the Crabjacks are Arm 22. Slayers compare very favorably to, say, Griffons in Ret (to borrow another example), even at the higher point cost. And the griffon is another 'gold standard' piece (like sentinels).
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