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Post by Cryptix on Nov 24, 2017 2:42:05 GMT
There's nothing to buy. Borrow some Cryx buttons outside "covendennygfdh" from a friend and try it out. You'll see. The games are fair, and Cryx has real trouble trying to attrition. I play (or have played) several factions, and while not that many in MK3, I believe I have some perspective. Not saying more than anyone here, but I'm not talking out my arse. My reply was a comment on how "Cryx's stuff shouldn't get help on the grounds of few things being OP", which was implied by someone. Just like with any other faction. See what happened to Circle? Tunas and Wurmy's dominance perhaps made PP take a step back too far. Now the wold buffs are out, and by all means the faction is not the worst, but far from the glory days. People are blinded and fail to see big picture because of outliers. Designers and gamers alike. I'm not immune to that, but I think it's a thing to keep in mind. Sorry, but as someone who played Cryx for years, I just don't agree.
When you talk about the 'outliers' in Cryx, you're largely talking about models that aren't just objectively strong, they're models with meta-bending potential. Coven, Denny1, Ghost fleet - they're all things that have warped the meta in pretty ugly ways, and hopefully they're getting toned down.
Below that, though, there is a ton of Cryx stuff that is just generically, objectively strong. Satyxis raiders are a god example of this, as are Banes (pretty much all of 'em), the Wraith Engine, and a good half of their casters. These are models that aren't meta-warping (yet) but are above the curve. Cryx players see them as the standard for the power level their models should be, but in reality they're models/units that would be S-A tier in any other faction. THAT'S what people mean when they talk about Cryx privilege.
And then of course once those units get hit the entire swaths of the faction that were already struggling get what exactly? Oh right, just more nerfs. Most of the faction already suffers from Denny Syndrome and yet all people seem to be concentrating on is removing every single piece that actually helps thralls stay afloat. I'm just waiting for the day pirate recursion gets needed and they decide to nerf surheons because obviously everything in Cryx is S+ tier right?
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Nov 24, 2017 3:34:27 GMT
And then of course once those units get hit But they didn't. Again it's Cryx Privilege. Denny Syndrome is "Why don't we have a flatline +1 to all our stuffs stats all the time?". I guess after having a personal jet first class is just the WORST, unbearable and unreasonable!!!!!! I played against mechanithralls with the bane witch and it was fine (With agreement from me and my opponent) recently. We all had a good time.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Nov 24, 2017 4:55:51 GMT
Sorry, but as someone who played Cryx for years, I just don't agree.
When you talk about the 'outliers' in Cryx, you're largely talking about models that aren't just objectively strong, they're models with meta-bending potential. Coven, Denny1, Ghost fleet - they're all things that have warped the meta in pretty ugly ways, and hopefully they're getting toned down.
Below that, though, there is a ton of Cryx stuff that is just generically, objectively strong. Satyxis raiders are a god example of this, as are Banes (pretty much all of 'em), the Wraith Engine, and a good half of their casters. These are models that aren't meta-warping (yet) but are above the curve. Cryx players see them as the standard for the power level their models should be, but in reality they're models/units that would be S-A tier in any other faction. THAT'S what people mean when they talk about Cryx privilege.
And then of course once those units get hit the entire swaths of the faction that were already struggling get what exactly? Oh right, just more nerfs. Most of the faction already suffers from Denny Syndrome and yet all people seem to be concentrating on is removing every single piece that actually helps thralls stay afloat. I'm just waiting for the day pirate recursion gets needed and they decide to nerf surheons because obviously everything in Cryx is S+ tier right? Ah yes, 'entire swathes.' Care to tell me what those 'swathes' are? Because I see maybe...three Cryx units that are legitimately underpowered. The rest are, at worst, average. And a good one-third to one-half are well above average, on top of having some of the strongest warcasters in the game backing them up. Of course, all that is leaving aside the fact that the sum total of Cryx nerfs thus far is one caster (broken since Mk1, and still an A+ tier caster even post-nerf) and revenant pirates. Denny syndrome is over-rated. Cryx has many units that compare favorably (perhaps too favorably) to their counterparts in other factions. Satyxis, Banes, Blackbanes, Smog Belchers, Black Ogrun, Marauders...hell, even Mcthralls...they're all units most factions would be happy to play.
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Post by far2casual on Nov 24, 2017 10:54:42 GMT
Denny syndrome is over-rated. Cryx has many units that compare favorably (perhaps too favorably) to their counterparts in other factions. Satyxis, Banes, Blackbanes, Smog Belchers, Black Ogrun, Marauders...hell, even Mcthralls...they're all units most factions would be happy to play. I'd like a bit more facts, and a bit less biaised opinions. Like : "see how good Bane Knights are compared to Dawnguard Sentinels".
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Nov 24, 2017 13:54:33 GMT
Like : "see how good Bane Knights are compared to Dawnguard Sentinels". And thats Cryx Privalege in a Nutshell. If they are not literally better then every other unit they are not good at all. Sure Dawngaurds are pretty great, possibly the best. But Compared to say Iron Fangs they sacrifice distance for Pathfinder, and hit much harder. Against Stormblades they can be spread apart much further and have Pathfinder, their theme force grants prowl which is still a big deal. Sentinels are also more expensive! But If Cryx aint the best at everything all the time, all at once, then its all worthless trash.
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Nov 24, 2017 14:19:16 GMT
Denny syndrome is over-rated. Cryx has many units that compare favorably (perhaps too favorably) to their counterparts in other factions. Satyxis, Banes, Blackbanes, Smog Belchers, Black Ogrun, Marauders...hell, even Mcthralls...they're all units most factions would be happy to play. I'd like a bit more facts, and a bit less biaised opinions. Like : "see how good Bane Knights are compared to Dawnguard Sentinels". So, are we allowed to compare smog belchers to bombadiers or not then..?
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bward
Junior Strategist
Posts: 184
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Post by bward on Nov 24, 2017 15:23:48 GMT
Denny syndrome is over-rated. Cryx has many units that compare favorably (perhaps too favorably) to their counterparts in other factions. Satyxis, Banes, Blackbanes, Smog Belchers, Black Ogrun, Marauders...hell, even Mcthralls...they're all units most factions would be happy to play. I'd like a bit more facts, and a bit less biaised opinions. Like : "see how good Bane Knights are compared to Dawnguard Sentinels". Dawnguard Sentinels? You mean the unit that doesn’t have a single damage buff in the entire faction except for Issy feat and Elara2 scything tough?
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Post by oncomingstorm on Nov 24, 2017 15:41:50 GMT
Denny syndrome is over-rated. Cryx has many units that compare favorably (perhaps too favorably) to their counterparts in other factions. Satyxis, Banes, Blackbanes, Smog Belchers, Black Ogrun, Marauders...hell, even Mcthralls...they're all units most factions would be happy to play. I'd like a bit more facts, and a bit less biaised opinions. Like : "see how good Bane Knights are compared to Dawnguard Sentinels". I mean, that's a terrible comparison, considering that the two units fill two different roles and are at two completely different price points. Bane Knights cost 9/15, have built in ghostly (terrain mitigation and free strike ignoring is SUPER good), higher armor, and hit very nearly as hard as Sentinels on the charge while taking charges much more effectively (Def 14 beats Def 12 Arm 20 any day of the week). In theme, they also have prowl. Sentinels are 12/18, hit slightly harder/more accurately (unless Tartarus is around, for free) and have vengeance. They have no terrain mitigation on their base chassis (if you want relentless charge, that's another 4 points) and are much more killable, especially without the UA. They are also in a faction that does not have the kind of debuffs or delivery mechanisms that Cryx offers (two casters with damage buffs, one of which Cryx has floating around caster-independent, the other of which is a feat). It's not at all clear to me that Sentinels are worse than knights, and Sentinels have been the gold standard for hard-hitting infantry since the start of Mk3. I would 100% take Bane Knights in Ret. I would probably even take them in the dawnguard theme (20 bodies for 30 points vs. 12 for 22)? From past experience, I would guess your next response will be either: A. tell me that cross-faction comparisons are useless, despite all evidence to the contrary. B. tell me that I'm biased and Sentinels aren't actually a good comparison (despite the fact that you proposed them), then suggest another unit...and when that gets rebuffed, another, and another, shifting the goalposts ad infinitum C. Ignore this completely I also note that you chose what is probably still the weakest unit of the units I listed, and are comparing them to one of the 'strongest' (I don't actually love sentinels, personally, but w/e) infantry units in the game.
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Post by Swampmist on Nov 25, 2017 3:42:46 GMT
Obncoming, I'm pretty sure you're wrong about the damage output of knights (they don't have dark shroud native like warriors.) But, also, why compare knights and sentinals? As you said, they don't fulfill the same role. But, Bane Warriors and Sentinals do very much fit the same role of "Weapon Master Infantry that kill heavies."
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Nov 25, 2017 4:17:30 GMT
Obncoming, I'm pretty sure you're wrong about the damage output of knights The scary thing is he isn't. They don't have Dark Shroud but they still have brutal charge. For a Charge Damage of 14 vs 12+Weaponmaster for Sentinels. So about a difference of 1.5. He compared them because they where brought up as a Cryx comparison. Which sort of suberts the point. Cryxes units are good enough, that even their defensive Banes, compare not terribly to the Sentinels in terms of Damage output (Whilst being 3 points cheaper).
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Post by trollsareblue on Nov 25, 2017 5:49:53 GMT
Denny syndrome is over-rated. Cryx has many units that compare favorably (perhaps too favorably) to their counterparts in other factions. Satyxis, Banes, Blackbanes, Smog Belchers, Black Ogrun, Marauders...hell, even Mcthralls...they're all units most factions would be happy to play. I'd like a bit more facts, and a bit less biaised opinions. Like : "see how good Bane Knights are compared to Dawnguard Sentinels". Can we instead compare Bane Knights with Fennblades? How about McThralls with Kriel Warriors? I have difficulty feeling sorry for Cryx unit choices, tbh.
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Post by macdaddy on Nov 25, 2017 13:58:10 GMT
Obncoming, I'm pretty sure you're wrong about the damage output of knights (they don't have dark shroud native like warriors.) But, also, why compare knights and sentinals? As you said, they don't fulfill the same role. But, Bane Warriors and Sentinals do very much fit the same role of "Weapon Master Infantry that kill heavies." I mean considering sentinels are some of the best line infantry in the game it’s impressive that a defensive unit keeps up with them. Look at units like Fenblades, Kriel Warriors, Legion infantry, Protectorate Knights, you’ll start to see how darn good all babes are for thier cost. Compare bane riders to other factions heavy cav and they seem to stand on top, compare warriors to other factions hard hitting WM unit and it’s the same (though sentinels put up a really really good fight)
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Nyxu
Overseer
NaCl Elemental
Posts: 119
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Post by Nyxu on Nov 25, 2017 17:10:06 GMT
Hello yes. This isn’t cid forums so I get to tell everyone to shut the Firetruck up for twenty four hours.
This thread has been reported as toxic. Given the participants and the topic I have decided that it’s likely these reports will pan out.
Locking thread pending review and righteous boops on snoots for people being jackasses. Making another topic about this before unlock happens is a jackass move. Don’t do it.
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Nyxu
Overseer
NaCl Elemental
Posts: 119
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Post by Nyxu on Nov 26, 2017 6:11:50 GMT
I, and a few other mods, have read the last handful of pages of this thread. The conclusion we have reached is that there are some strong opinions to be found here. And, while a pause button was warranted, This thread will be unlocked with the following moderator statements applied: The phrase "Cryx Privilege", while coming from a position that can be empathized with, uses terminology that is not conducive to constructive discussion, and in fact tends to make people defensive or otherwise upset. It is the opinion of myself and at least one moderator above me that, when used in a derisive fashion, is a Buttmunch Move With that said,
Keep it clean!
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Post by oncomingstorm on Nov 26, 2017 7:01:04 GMT
Obncoming, I'm pretty sure you're wrong about the damage output of knights (they don't have dark shroud native like warriors.) But, also, why compare knights and sentinals? As you said, they don't fulfill the same role. But, Bane Warriors and Sentinals do very much fit the same role of "Weapon Master Infantry that kill heavies." I'd be happy to, the bane knight to sentinel comparison was another user's idea. I think Bane Warriors come out on top even more dramatically: Bane Warriors: - +1 P+S (effectively) with dark shroud - native (and superior) terrain mitigation - prowl + tough + rise makes for a unit which is extremely hard to remove at range, particularly as they can use terrain to trigger prowl with no disadvantage (and in fact, are in a theme that creates clouds to trigger prowl - Cheaper (10/16 for the unit, 5 for the UA. The UA adds 5 attacks, instead of the 1 the sentinel UA gives.) - Minifeat makes gives attrition potential - Bring a -2 armor debuff for the rest of the army to use, which takes practically no effort to apply. Dawnguard Sentinels - +1 MAT (though they don't have a veteran leader option available for free in theme, either). - Vengeance - +1" Reach - Wall of Steel + Minifeat Iron Zeal I would that (in general), Bane Warriors are more difficult to remove than Sentinels (though the tech that's required to remove each is quite different, so it's hard to compare. However, the tech that removes warriors (stealth-ignoring, high volume of fire guns) is less common than the tech that remove sentinels (boostable guns, period, as well as continuous effects and KD on anything but feat turn). Neither unit survives charge attacks from any but the weakest of units, but Bane Warriors still get tough (unless the opponent has brought tough-denial tech, naturally). Also, the Bane Warriors maintain their durability turn-to-turn, but the Sentinels only get one turn of high Armor Offensively, Bane Warriors hit harder and have two more attacks for a full unit +UA, but with a slightly lower threat range (unless vengeance is triggered, which a competent opponent will not do unless removing a substantial chunk of the unit. I think this is probably a wash between the two units, with a possible slight edge to the sentinels. What really tips the scales for me is the combination of ghostly, which allows Warriors to ignore terrain (except for triggering prowl) and the armor debuff they bring for the rest of the list. Both of these are strong abilities that the Sentinels simply don't have anything comparable to, and Dark Shroud in particular offers a ton of force multiplication to the rest of the Cryx list (for instance, in the Bane Knight to Sentinel comparison above, Bane Knights hit harder than sentinels as soon as there's a Bane Warrior on the the charge target). And of course, the Bane Warriors have access to all the myriad debuffs of Cryx, whereas the Sentinels get the...less than stellar unit support offered by Retribution casters. Overall, I would say Bane Warriors are a stronger unit for their points than Sentinels...which, given that people seem to view Sentinels as a 'gold standard' for heavy infantry, seems pretty gross.
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