benkei
Junior Strategist
Posts: 244
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Post by benkei on Nov 23, 2017 5:25:19 GMT
But, but, but... Cryx needs the help, they are on such a bad spot!
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Nov 23, 2017 7:31:22 GMT
No it was pointed out how the UA is only good on paper. And how contradictory its elements are. They can get into difficult terrain but not charge out of it. But it also encourages them to be in melee But seriously why can Cryx get the UA equivalent built INTO their ranged unit? See I don't agree. They can get into rough terrain while still firing, making it more difficult for enemies to get at them. Why would they want to charge out? They're a ranged unit. The mini-feat means right before lines meet they get to make a very solid amount of attacks. Given their unassisted threat of 16" with the gun range increase they should easily be able to do this before getting engaged. Finally, dual attack lets them kill models that do manage to jam them, but also keep up their ranged output. It doesn't encourage them to be in melee, it lets them function as a ranged unit even if they get jammed up. I can see them being an issue to get out of zones once they're in them to be honest, while still putting out a good amount of ranged attacks. I think people need to play them (as a ranged unit) to see that they're actually good at their job now. Cheers, Dave
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Post by Gamingdevil on Nov 23, 2017 7:41:42 GMT
Yeah remember guys/gals Smoggies are rat 5 now and that's a pretty bad ranged stat to have. They hit heavy targets pretty well and can pop a supportive cloud wall. They also can deny infantry orders witch is nice but thanks to needing a direct hit its not horribly abuse able. i sure am glad that cryx doesn't have any def debuffs / rat fixers like... oh i don't know... - Black Spot (-2 def, make another shot on kill) on one caster
- Calamity (-2/-2) on one caster
- Mortality (-2/-2) (multiple casters have this) Venethrax and Denny 3
- Scourge (KD) on one caster post-CID
- Death Walker (-2 def within 5") on one caster, that probably won't play in Slaughter Fleet
- Icy Grip (-2 def no running) on one caster
- TK (back strikes vs individual models, or TK + aim) on the same caster as Icy Grip
- Shadow bind (multiple sources) with the change to Denny 2, all of those "multiple" sources are melee, so that's an effective +1 DEF instead of -3
- Crippling grasp (-2/-2/-2/-2) on one caster
- Denny feat same caster as above
- Blind (crit effect from multiple abilities such as Kharybdis' spray) besides Kharybdis I can think of Stygian Abyss on the Coven. Do I miss anything?
- Breath Stealer (-2 spd -2 def) on one caster post-CID (who lost Marked for Death for it)
- Stationary one caster that has to feat (and sacrifice models for it) and on Erebus's fists, also a chain attack on a model that doesn't overlap in any themes
- Paralysis (crit effect) on a Colossal that will literally never see play with this unit
- Puppet master on one character warcaster attachment and on Eilysh, who everyone has access to
- +whatever mercs give, if anything, cbf checking Eilysh and Gorman are the only ones I can think of
They may be rat 5, but somehow i think that matters less in cryx than in other factions Somehow I think other factions, especially the ones focused on ranged, also have buffs/debuffs available.
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benkei
Junior Strategist
Posts: 244
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Post by benkei on Nov 23, 2017 12:09:22 GMT
Since when does Cryx focus in ranged? It seems Cryx just focuses on EVERYTHING
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Post by smoothcriminal on Nov 23, 2017 13:03:45 GMT
Oh c'mon, caster spells don't figure into stats, that's the whole point of Warmahordes. Caster-independent do, but cryx doesn't have those for Rat afaik.
There is also nothing wrong with a faction having all kinds of focused themes. Skorne has ranged theme and they're melee freaks in lore.
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marke
Junior Strategist
Posts: 187
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Post by marke on Nov 23, 2017 16:51:40 GMT
But, but, but... Cryx needs the help, they are on such a bad spot! Kinda yes. Outside two broken themes and few ridiculous casters, most of the faction is quite manageable and certainly not ahead of the curve. Perhaps even below, but that might be stretching. The new CID might change this, but currently feel free to play Cryx vs any top tier lists WITHOUT Denny1, Coven, Dark Host or GF and let me know how it goes The games aren't going to be that easy. (Not taking away anything from people playing GF/DH, I'm sure those lists take a bit to master as well). Everyone agrees that the top stuff of Cryx should be nerfed, but that is not an excuse to make rest of the faction suffer.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Nov 23, 2017 16:54:49 GMT
Makes sense. Cryx without their broken stuff will have a hard time into other factions' broken stuff. I guess the problem isn't with Cryx, it's with broken stuff.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Nov 23, 2017 17:16:55 GMT
Outside two broken themes and few ridiculous casters, most of the faction is quite manageable and certainly not ahead of the curve. Perhaps even below, but that might be stretching. I don't buy that. That's literally every faction. Every faction has one two crazy guys, and everything else is quite manageable. But for Cryx this means uber buffing everything else they have. I see Cryx VIEW themselves below the curve because the power level they are used to or say is optimal, is S or A ranked. So Bs for them are unacceptable and "Below the Curve" whilst Trolls for instance Cherish any Bs they even got. I played against Cryx with just the regular zombies. It was fine. It was reasonable, fun and everybody had a good time. For Cryx a Caster Attachment with sucker is "Below the curve" even at 4 points. So it needs to have caster healing, Spellcasting, and Dispel built into it as well. I say spoiled for choice. Even Cygnar didn't ask for this much with Trenchers.
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Post by macdaddy on Nov 23, 2017 17:56:16 GMT
Pretty much what rowdy said.
A lot of the comments in the CiD forums reflect that.
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Post by welshhoppo on Nov 23, 2017 19:16:24 GMT
I also agree with Rowdy.
Cryx is, and pretty much has always been above the curve.
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marke
Junior Strategist
Posts: 187
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Post by marke on Nov 23, 2017 20:37:49 GMT
There's nothing to buy. Borrow some Cryx buttons outside "covendennygfdh" from a friend and try it out. You'll see. The games are fair, and Cryx has real trouble trying to attrition. I play (or have played) several factions, and while not that many in MK3, I believe I have some perspective. Not saying more than anyone here, but I'm not talking out my arse.
My reply was a comment on how "Cryx's stuff shouldn't get help on the grounds of few things being OP", which was implied by someone. Just like with any other faction. See what happened to Circle? Tunas and Wurmy's dominance perhaps made PP take a step back too far. Now the wold buffs are out, and by all means the faction is not the worst, but far from the glory days.
People are blinded and fail to see big picture because of outliers. Designers and gamers alike. I'm not immune to that, but I think it's a thing to keep in mind.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Nov 23, 2017 20:45:41 GMT
There's nothing to buy. Borrow some Cryx buttons outside "covendennygfdh" from a friend and try it out. You'll see. The games are fair, and Cryx has real trouble trying to attrition. I play (or have played) several factions, and while not that many in MK3, I believe I have some perspective. Not saying more than anyone here, but I'm not talking out my arse. My reply was a comment on how "Cryx's stuff shouldn't get help on the grounds of few things being OP", which was implied by someone. Just like with any other faction. See what happened to Circle? Tunas and Wurmy's dominance perhaps made PP take a step back too far. Now the wold buffs are out, and by all means the faction is not the worst, but far from the glory days. People are blinded and fail to see big picture because of outliers. Designers and gamers alike. I'm not immune to that, but I think it's a thing to keep in mind. Sorry, but as someone who played Cryx for years, I just don't agree.
When you talk about the 'outliers' in Cryx, you're largely talking about models that aren't just objectively strong, they're models with meta-bending potential. Coven, Denny1, Ghost fleet - they're all things that have warped the meta in pretty ugly ways, and hopefully they're getting toned down.
Below that, though, there is a ton of Cryx stuff that is just generically, objectively strong. Satyxis raiders are a god example of this, as are Banes (pretty much all of 'em), the Wraith Engine, and a good half of their casters. These are models that aren't meta-warping (yet) but are above the curve. Cryx players see them as the standard for the power level their models should be, but in reality they're models/units that would be S-A tier in any other faction. THAT'S what people mean when they talk about Cryx privilege.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Nov 23, 2017 23:33:24 GMT
Exactly what Oncomingstorm said. To me its just the breadth of their options. So much stuff was added this Cid alone that's game-changing for other factions. But to cryx its just another Toy. What would happen if MENOTH got Mechanics that can curse for +2 Accuracy for Jacks independent of caster (And because that's not enough lets give em dismantle)?
Again to Cryx just another toy.
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Post by Azuresun on Nov 24, 2017 0:49:31 GMT
Sorry, but as someone who played Cryx for years, I just don't agree.
When you talk about the 'outliers' in Cryx, you're largely talking about models that aren't just objectively strong, they're models with meta-bending potential. Coven, Denny1, Ghost fleet - they're all things that have warped the meta in pretty ugly ways, and hopefully they're getting toned down.
Below that, though, there is a ton of Cryx stuff that is just generically, objectively strong. Satyxis raiders are a god example of this, as are Banes (pretty much all of 'em), the Wraith Engine, and a good half of their casters. These are models that aren't meta-warping (yet) but are above the curve. Cryx players see them as the standard for the power level their models should be, but in reality they're models/units that would be S-A tier in any other faction. THAT'S what people mean when they talk about Cryx privilege.
Pretty much this. Every faction should have multiple good lists they can build with any given theme. But that's distinct from having multiple "build for this or gg" lists that dictate what every other faction can take.
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Post by mcdermott on Nov 24, 2017 2:24:08 GMT
Oh c'mon, caster spells don't figure into stats, that's the whole point of Warmahordes. Caster-independent do, but cryx doesn't have those for Rat afaik. There is also nothing wrong with a faction having all kinds of focused themes. Skorne has ranged theme and they're melee freaks in lore. This would be a terrible design philosophy if true, and i don't believe it is. I think this is people projecting their belief on how to design a game onto this one unless someone can point to an official source saying they don't take caster buffs into account when balancing units. I absolutely believe PP does their best to take into account the various buffs/debuffs available to a faction when designing that factions units. Maybe not in the face of solitary casters with unique spells (like vlad with s+p) but when 50% + of your casters can throw a -2 defense debuff out itd be pants on head retarded not to take that into account when designing units.
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