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Post by Swampmist on Nov 26, 2017 17:49:35 GMT
Benkei, calm down ma dude. It's just warmans.
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npe
Junior Strategist
Posts: 221
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Post by npe on Nov 26, 2017 17:52:11 GMT
LOL at "Khador has an arc node" and double lol at me forgetting only Khador casters have spells while the poor Cryx ones can't help their jacks AT ALL. So your jacks were weak versus shooting? I'm gonna tell you something: that's called having a weakness like, you know, having no arc nodes/light jacks and SPD 4 jacks, but I suppose that's a novel concept when you play Cryx. Fortunately PP seems to think like you and it's trying its Firetrucking best to erase any weakness Cryx has, because reasons. I can see you are handling theme forces with rationality and equanimity.
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Post by macdaddy on Nov 26, 2017 17:54:40 GMT
In all fairness they trade offensive output for that arm increase. compare to the seether and you’ll see what I’m saying. Less Pow, 1 Less initial, 1 less Mat, No free charges. And trades Countercharge for shield guard. npe I mean he isn’t wrong though. Your jack theme solves the 1 issue with cryx jacks have (surviving on approach) and o have always been under the impression that the complaints about cryx jacks being awful as a whole are unwarranted. They die like pansies but you are fast, cheapish and hard hitting.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Nov 26, 2017 18:00:13 GMT
In all fairness they trade offensive output for that arm increase. compare to the seether and you’ll see what I’m saying. Less Pow, 1 Less initial, 1 less Mat, No free charges. And trades Countercharge for shield guard. For sure. I'm just saying, between the higher armor crabjacks, inflictors, and cheap shield guards everywhere (brute thralls) I'm not convinced Cryx jacks didn't have game into shooting before BI dropped. Sure, a dedicated gunline tears them apart unless they've specifically teched against it, but...it does that to plenty of my Ret and Circle lists, too. I just don't understand why Cryx gets to be 'the unshootable faction' on top of 'the faction with the best infantry' and 'the faction with the best casters, to make up for their infantry being bad,'
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benkei
Junior Strategist
Posts: 244
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Post by benkei on Nov 26, 2017 18:01:55 GMT
Can you tell me how? Can you tell me why it's wrong to ask for a theme force that deletes traditional faction's weaknesses when Cryx just got a couple of them?
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Post by oncomingstorm on Nov 26, 2017 18:07:06 GMT
I'll be honest, when themepocalypse dropped, I was REALLY hoping for theme benefits on par with Cryx's in some of the Circle themes.
- Gang fighter (or similar) in Wild Hunt - Sacred Ward (or placeable forests, a la Dark Host) in Secret Masters - Carapace in Bones
would have been nice to see. But apparently only Cryx gets faction-changing theme benefits?
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Post by Swampmist on Nov 26, 2017 18:20:07 GMT
*hides his Hand of Vengeance theme benefit under the rug*
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npe
Junior Strategist
Posts: 221
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Post by npe on Nov 26, 2017 18:21:45 GMT
In all fairness they trade offensive output for that arm increase. compare to the seether and you’ll see what I’m saying. Less Pow, 1 Less initial, 1 less Mat, No free charges. And trades Countercharge for shield guard. npe I mean he isn’t wrong though. Your jack theme solves the 1 issue with cryx jacks have (surviving on approach) and o have always been under the impression that the complaints about cryx jacks being awful as a whole are unwarranted. They die like pansies but you are fast, cheapish and hard hitting. BI is a tradeoff, you trade Cryx's normally superior infantry for drudges and get a benefit that lets you survive on the approach. You still trade unfavorably once you get there so you still have to carefully manage your alpha to make sure you actually kill something when you get the charge.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Nov 26, 2017 18:24:53 GMT
*hides his Hand of Vengeance theme benefit under the rug* Don't get me wrong, there are other theme benefits that seem out of line (though I think it's more a case of not having a consistent line per se) but it's most on evidence in Cryx, where half of their theme forces have extremely strong benefits (arguably 4, depending on how you view the Ghost Fleet theme benefit). Like...Ret has one (forges) in an extremely restrictive theme. Arguably, Circle has another (Devourer's host, albeit one which is propping up a fair amount of otherwise poor infantry) and Khador has one in WGK. But they're single examples, versus 50%+ of Cryx theme lists offering an absurdly powerful bonus. It's like some themes follow the same logic of: - free stuff - minor bonus to units/jacks - bonus on deployment (+1 to start roll, 2" deployment, advance move, ambush on one unit) and others just...don't, without a lot of rhyme or reason. I would think that it's more restrictive themes getting the stronger bonuses, but that's clearly not the case.
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Post by Swampmist on Nov 26, 2017 18:30:12 GMT
I mean, there are plenty more examples. 8 Box snacking Gators and Ambushing guns in Minions, Irregulars being "out-of-theme but with free points" might as well be a benefit plus feign death in Kingmakers and pretty much every part of La Resistance, Hand of Vengeance, tough\no kd TFG and Blessed for menoth, every single rfp+no tough theme, ect. I frankly think it's more that there are a few cases of really bland (and usually bad) theme force bonuses sticking out than an over-all lack of wquality that cryx avoids. Plus, I mean, Infernal Machines is still pretty damn mediocre, probably more-so than most of the other themes in Warmachine (probably not hordes tho.)
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npe
Junior Strategist
Posts: 221
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Post by npe on Nov 26, 2017 18:30:33 GMT
I'll be honest, when themepocalypse dropped, I was REALLY hoping for theme benefits on par with Cryx's in some of the Circle themes. - Gang fighter (or similar) in Wild Hunt - Sacred Ward (or placeable forests, a la Dark Host) in Secret Masters - Carapace in Bones would have been nice to see. But apparently only Cryx gets faction-changing theme benefits? You're comparing apples to oranges here. Cryx's debuffs (outside of Denny1) are either single model offensive upkeeps or max out at -2/-4. You're not going to get gang fighter can already warp strength and get primal (and scything touch with tanith), you're not going to get sacred ward because it overlaps with wraths and druids, and you're definitely not going to get carapace because of how it interacts with roots of the earth and woldwraths (arm 23/27 woldwraths or even 22/26 megaliths turn to turn are not going to happen). Most of the Cryx theme benefits are possible because the Cryx jack stable is so fragile and weak out of the box. Colossals don't get carapace and parasite can't be cycled for precisely this reason.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Nov 26, 2017 18:39:10 GMT
I'll be honest, when themepocalypse dropped, I was REALLY hoping for theme benefits on par with Cryx's in some of the Circle themes. - Gang fighter (or similar) in Wild Hunt - Sacred Ward (or placeable forests, a la Dark Host) in Secret Masters - Carapace in Bones would have been nice to see. But apparently only Cryx gets faction-changing theme benefits? You're comparing apples to oranges here. Cryx's debuffs (outside of Denny1) are either single model offensive upkeeps or max out at -2/-4. You're not going to get gang fighter can already warp strength and get primal (and scything touch with tanith), you're not going to get sacred ward because it overlaps with wraths and druids, and you're definitely not going to get carapace because of how it interacts with roots of the earth and woldwraths (arm 23/27 woldwraths or even 22/26 megaliths turn to turn are not going to happen). Most of the Cryx theme benefits are possible because the Cryx jack stable is so fragile and weak out of the box. Colossals don't get carapace and parasite can't be cycled for precisely this reason. So a buff that makes you lose the warbeast's next activation, a strength buff that gets factored into the cost/stats of the warbeast in question, and a debuff that Cryx can apply for free, caster-independent...on a beast that costs as much as an expensive character warjack...is somehow better than the multiple no-downside debuffs Cryx can apply? On warjacks that already hit harder, more accurately, and for less cost than warpwolves? Pull the other one. Sacred ward overlapping is a bad thing...why? No one said anything about Carapace on colossals. I was assuming the BI logic of carapace on heavies only. And getting up to absurd armor stats against shooting hardly seems OP to me...BI is already practically unshootable, there's a point where stacking more armor on top of that doesn't actually net you any benefit.
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npe
Junior Strategist
Posts: 221
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Post by npe on Nov 26, 2017 18:49:45 GMT
Dark shroud is only readily available in one theme, 4 require a battle engine, CA or ILO and the one that provides gang fighter doesn't have it at all. You can get it from your casters, but the only caster that can stack it with anything else (assuming you aren't Jenkinsing Agathia) is Gaspy1. All primal and warping strength require is a gorax and a warp wolf. Apples and oranges.
cf. pathfinder getting taken off scourge.
It is OP full stop. Even striker1/Harkevich can only do their tricks on feat turn. The devs aren't going to allow carapace to stack with roots of the earth (21/25, 22/26 are not going to happen). Roots of the earth *is* carapace in Bones.
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Post by Swampmist on Nov 26, 2017 18:57:14 GMT
oncomingstorm I think you're being a bit hyperbolic. One theme has access to fairly applicable Dark Shroud (dark host). The battle engine gets close, but it also blocks charge lanes (because it's huge butt stands in the way, even if it doesn't attack you can't just sit inside of it) and all of these effects apply the defense-in-melee bonus.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Nov 26, 2017 19:04:14 GMT
Dark shroud is only readily available in one theme, 4 require a battle engine, CA or ILO and the one that provides gang fighter doesn't have it at all. You can get it from your casters, but the only caster that can stack it with anything else (assuming you aren't Jenkinsing Agathia) is Gaspy1. All primal and warping strength require is a gorax and a warp wolf. Apples and oranges. cf. pathfinder getting taken off scourge. It is OP full stop. Even striker1/Harkevich can only do their tricks on feat turn. The devs aren't going to allow carapace to stack with roots of the earth (21/25, 22/26 are not going to happen). Roots of the earth *is* carapace in Bones. So blessed ignores carapace now? That's good to know. -Carapace is only equivalent to a +4 armor buff against gunline lists without any melee punch whatsoever. That is exactly the argument you used to justify BI being a fair and balanced theme benefit. -Sacred ward on heavies and lights. Done. No overlap. - so, it only requires 24-26 points of warbeasts, 17-19 of which must be committed, and for one of them to lose their next activation to frenzy. Got it. Totally comparable to having a 13 point jack that hits about as hard as a warpwolf gain gang fighter + all of the damage buffs Cryx can give it. A Gang Fighter'd seether hits at MAt 10 P+S 19, 21 under any Cryx damage buff (24 under Gaspy1). A Feral warpwolf hits at Mat 9 P+S 21 under warp strength, primal, and a damage buff. It gets 4 higher P+S on one attack, the same number of attacks, (no free charge) but must sacrifice it's activation next turn, and costs 50% more than a seether (twice as much if we're factoring in a gorax). Cryx jacks suck though, right?
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