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Post by Armchair Warrior on Sept 12, 2017 0:05:07 GMT
What are you bringing now-a-days to tech against Cryx?
I'd like your opinion too (please!) on a potential whack idea I am considering testing in a local steamroller this Saturday. I'll lead up to it by giving my 2 cents on where I've been to date.
Original Tech:
I had tried casters other than Butcher 3 (although not Sorscha 2), and have found that lack magic weapons and RFP just hamstring me too badly. Once the Greylord theme is legal tech, I am likely to drop B3 as my Cryx drop, but for now Denny 1 Ghost Fleet led me to B3 in WGK.
I chose WGK over jaws for a few reasons.
(1) My other list is Karchev in Jaws. 2 Jaws lists felt redundant in terms of match ups and vulnerabilities.
(2) I feel like Butcher needs the shield guard red shirts.
B3 - Initial WGK List, Now With Gun Carraige
I had B3 with 4 jacks (Ruin, Marauder 2X, Kodiak), 2 WG units with 6 Rockets, and a Gun Carriage. I thought I would love the GC against Denny but it's just too damn attractive of a crippling grasp target so I took it out of the list. I also didn't like leaving my wardog at home. It made Butcher unhappy.
B3 - Revised WGK, Rocket Edition
I dumped the GC, put the wardog back in, and ended up with Ruin, Kodiak, Marauder 2X, Joe, WGRC 2X (min) with 3 rockets each, WGI (3 rockets, OS), and a free weapon crew. I don't hate this list. I added the WGI because of Dark Host (higher POW, Sprays). But, against Denny, I feel like she just laughs at all those rockets because I have no de-stealth. There's just no downside to her playing farther forward. I feel like I need to make my guns a threat to keep her honest on any non-feat turn.
B3 - Now With Spriggan and Widowmakers?!
OK, am I crazy? I'm thinking about adding a Spriggan in for the anti-stealth tech. Adding it will keep Denny honest. Also, I now have something that lets me shoot Prowling dead people.
I'm thinking something like this:
B3 - Dog, Ruin, Destroyer, Spriggan
AND EITHER: Malkov 1 (marshaling the Destroyer or Spriggan)
OR Widowmaker Marksman (and all the jacks in the Battlegroup)
Joe
Scouts
WGRC (min) 2X, each with 3 rockets
Field Gun (free)
OK, hear me out.
I don't need 4 jacks because Butcher can do so much work himself. Adding the scouts lets me scalpel out high arm banes warrior models. I am thinking about marshaling one of the jacks on Malakov for the added focus efficiency and armor. I'd normally say "hell no" but maybe with all those Sucker! tarkets this actually is a good trade? The Spriggan turns into a POW 20 fully fueled bulldozing monster, or the Destroyer gets lots of boosted rolls. And, it's one more magic ranged attack for taking out solos. The Destroyer gives me a boostable bombard which creates a 14" no go zone for Denny. An alternative would be to swap it for a Marauder and the Marksman.
Is this nuts?
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Post by Netherby on Sept 12, 2017 1:11:08 GMT
Very few people are actually playing Ghost Fleet in my meta. Probably because buying 3 boxes of metal pirates turns most people off the idea?
Dark Host is much more common because people usually already own those models if they played Cryx in Mk2... The Spriggan isn't completely insane, both lists make use of stealth models. Mat 6 however means it's missing a lot against Def 13 jacks. I'm still not a big fan of Destroyers, it has to aim if you want reasonable odds of hitting Denny. It's okay at killing bane warriors, but you could just have a mortar team instead.
I don't see that much utility with the scouts. Only bane knights are good targets for them, but they are unlikely to be able to isolate models unless your opponent positions them really nicely for you. Then again banes have no speed buffs these days, so you could possibly get 2 rounds of shooting into them if you are removing the stealth. Killing 8 models isn't terrible. But wouldn't your existing rockets let you do the same thing?
I would actually be questioning why there are 9 rockets in your list if it's primarily a Cryx drop? That seems like a lot more than you need...
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Sept 12, 2017 2:44:56 GMT
I would actually be questioning why there are 9 rockets in your list if it's primarily a Cryx drop? That seems like a lot more than you need... ...Because you can never have too many rockets? Retooling on the fly here in light of a couple of your comments, I could max out two WG units, fit in a Spriggan and still have four jacks. I lose the Scouts, but pick up four more dudes in each unit for Joe to boost. I like the armor cracking better. And more sac pawn targets. I lose the field gun but gain a Marauder for spot knock down. If Denny cripples a unit, I can just use Apply Ruin. Theme: Winter Guard Kommand 1 / 1 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army Kommander Zoktavir, the Butcher Unleashed - WJ: +22 - War Argus - Ruin - PC: 17 (Battlegroup Points Used: 17) - Spriggan - PC: 19 (Battlegroup Points Used: 5) - Juggernaut - PC: 12 - Marauder - PC: 10 Kovnik Jozef Grigorovich - PC: 4 Winter Guard Rifle Corps - Leader & 9 Grunts: 13 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 Winter Guard Infantry - Leader & 9 Grunts: 10 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 - Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2 - Winter Guard Infantry Officer & Standard - Officer & Standard: 0 This feels...more solid against non-Cryx drops, and I like the Marauder |
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kaos
Junior Strategist
Posts: 268 
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Post by kaos on Sept 12, 2017 5:17:52 GMT
Gun carriage with silence of death looks sexy but as you said is a easy target and also it doesn't raise the strength of his impact attacks.
To be honest I didn't find a solution to Cryx or at least an hard counter. This because:
1) khador lacks a upkeep removal both in and out theme. Apart zerkova.
2) It offers big target to crippling grasp, like gun carriage, that is the best anti infantry control piece. He murders both ghost fleet infantry and dark host if you can up his power with a spell like fury. Who doesn't like power 17 impact attacks that clip everything in 11 inches and have boosted attack rolls?
But if is crippled is useless.
3) with the heavy wgi nerf we aren't so tooled up to deal with Cryx infantry. You don't want really to throw a jack at them not even a devastator, and you can't throw kayazy assassins because anatomical precision do not work. Nonetheless you want to put in man o wars, the swarm of longer treating weapon master banes will shred them to ribbons.
So looking at all the options I don't think we have a option who can deal with incorporeal infantry and battle engines. We got magical weapons with marshalled jacks and ruin, we got gun carriage with SoD, we got a upkeep removal caster, but we are unable to mix all these elements in a cohesive list.
It could be worth to play off theme to insert some Cryx hate in form of Ayanna and Holt, Orin and even Alexia. But these are expensive options and playing outside theme means to play down 8 pts average.
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Post by borderprince on Sept 12, 2017 10:51:51 GMT
I've said before that I find my Zerkova1 JoW list has decent game into Cryx. It's not designed as a pure anti-Cryx drop, but its workable.
Zerkova1
-Juggernaut
-Juggernaut
-Marauder
Forgeseer (free)
-Destroyer
Forgeseer (free)
-Destroyer
Marksman
Kayazy Assassins max + UA
Eliminators
Eliminators
Widowmakers
You've got some magic weapons, upkeep removal, melee assassination threat from Eliminators (viable against Denny1). The main gap is RFP.
Zerkova has a decent attrition game into Cryx with Kayazy. Kaos' right that they don't get anatomical precision, but that isn't required against Ghost Fleet or Bane Warriors (by far the most common, at least in my experience). Kayazy hit hard enough against most Cryx infantry other than Bane Knights.
Kayazy are good at jamming Cryx infantry, as their MAT isn't that good (even with Gang pirates are MAT7, same for Banes with Taratarus). Zerkova's clouds, if positioned well, make that even better. Stealth gives protection against both Cryx shooting and spells.
Her feat gives some protection against pirate rifles, and she is immune to Denny's debuffs other than the feat (which again makes the rifle assassination less of a concern). Watcher is some protection against attempts to get an arc node close to arc a scourge onto a model near Zerkova too.
The battlegroup is the part of the list that can change the most, but I like this as my more or less default all comers battlegroup and prefer it against Cryx to a colossal, which is too vulnerable to debuffs. The Juggernauts are usually overkill against Cryx, but can do a good job of removing the arc node from a bone jack (or at least threatening to do so) on a single Watcher attack. I've considered moving the Marauder to a Forgeseer (good melee threat against the Wraith Engine) and a Destroyer to Zerkova, but haven't tried it yet.
None of this is perfect, but it isn't terrible. There is a game to be had. Often it comes down to feat timing. If you can feat just before Denny's feat, the rifle assassination is less worrying (as rifle range is equal to Zerkova's control area, no rifle shots on Zerkova during her feat turn). You can try to force that by offering other attractive feat targets than Zerkova, like a sacrifical jack or two.
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Post by leotherat on Sept 12, 2017 12:15:17 GMT
What about Zerkova2 and the gun carriage? Like you said Silence of Death doesn't really help it but Banishing Ward does. Her feat does become neutered (only usable on herself) but you can still telgash someone/thing and have her sit back and watch the fun. She's still immune to spell assassination and her doom guard can add a little punch if necessary.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Sept 12, 2017 12:22:20 GMT
B3 wgk.
If I were to make a list specifically against Cryx then it would be:
Khador Army - 75 / 75 points
[Theme] Winter Guard Kommand
(Butcher 3) Kommander Zoktavir, The Butcher Unleashed [+22]
- Devastator [14]
- Ruin [17]
- War Dog [3]
Kovnik Jozef Grigorovich [4]
Battle Mechaniks (min) [3]
Winter Guard Infantry (max) [10]
- Winter Guard Infantry Officer & Standard [4]
- Winter Guard Rocketeer (3) [6]
Winter Guard Rifle Corps (max) [13]
- Winter Guard Rocketeer (3) [6]
Winter Guard Gun Carriage [17]
Winter Guard Mortar Crew [0(5)]
Winter Guard Mortar Crew [0(5)]
Winter Guard Field Gun Crew [0(4)]
Wgi sprays, carriage and mortars (very good against non-satyxis for their points) to deal with infantry. I would even consider 2x wgi. Ruin can remove upkeeps. B3 and Ruin to deal with incorp. SoD with Carriage/Devastator trample/Ruin for rfp.
In the future mow theme will have mercs. I'm actually hyped for what B2 or OW can theoretically do in mow theme.
Also koldun theme, Vlad double ponies or something like that.
I'm also pretty confident that PP will retroactively add mercs to other themes.
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wendan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 785
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Post by wendan on Sept 12, 2017 13:51:42 GMT
AK's with Strak or Sorscha 2 are pretty sweet. Flamethrowers are always nice to have around. It's harder to deal with the incorporeal stuff, but Forge Seers help with that.
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Post by AdeptusB on Sept 12, 2017 18:51:42 GMT
It really ticks me off that Zerkova 1 lost Banishing Ward in MkIII. She'd be my go-to anti-Crix caster if she still had it...
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Post by tsunami1k on Sept 12, 2017 19:10:44 GMT
The secret to dropping a gun carriage into Denny1 GF is to drop 2!!
Seriously! I've had pretty good success into Cryx and many others (if I don't get Butcher killed by being Rambo) with the below list. The key is making sure to balance the threat of them both so that one doesn't get crippling grasped while the other dies and to keep Ruin fairly close to them, if possible. I've had many games where one gets Grasped while the other does some work then dies. My next turn I am able to hit the crippled one with Ruin, then send it in to wreak havoc. Coven/Banes has been my worst matchup with Cryx and usually, I just have to flank hard and lob AOE's to force an early feat, backup giving up a few scenario points, then come back in the next turn. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
Khador - B3 gun carriage doubles
Theme: Winter Guard Kommand
2 / 2 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Stockpile - Steamroller Objective
Kommander Zoktavir, the Butcher Unleashed - WJ: +22
- War Argus
- Kodiak - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13)
- Kodiak - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 9)
- Ruin - PC: 17
Winter Guard Gun Carriage - PC: 17
Winter Guard Gun Carriage - PC: 17
Kovnik Jozef Grigorovich - PC: 4
Winter Guard Field Gun Crew - Gunner & 2 Grunts: 0
Winter Guard Infantry - Leader & 9 Grunts: 10
- Winter Guard Infantry Officer & Standard - Officer & Standard: 0
- Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2
- Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2
- Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2
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Post by Netherby on Sept 13, 2017 1:22:24 GMT
I would actually be questioning why there are 9 rockets in your list if it's primarily a Cryx drop? That seems like a lot more than you need... ...Because you can never have too many rockets? Retooling on the fly here in light of a couple of your comments, I could max out two WG units, fit in a Spriggan and still have four jacks. I lose the Scouts, but pick up four more dudes in each unit for Joe to boost. I like the armor cracking better. And more sac pawn targets. I lose the field gun but gain a Marauder for spot knock down. If Denny cripples a unit, I can just use Apply Ruin. Looks pretty decent to me. I like having a Marauder around these days with the number of battle engines going up. Power 20 slams that you can pretty much pick the direction of aren't bad either. You can close to one hit a lot of lights if you slam them into a larger/equal sized model or terrain (additional dice, plus boost for 20+4D6 damage). If they live a rocket or a few rifles shots will finish them. Cryx have their battle engine in both lists. Of course they have no reason to make it corporeal, but a lot will charge it in any way because having it do nothing feeling wrong. Then Marauder can go to town. The 6 rockets can easily break a formation of Arm 20 bane knights so that you can pick off the remaining Arm 18 models. So I don't think dropping the scouts matters, except for picking off the last boxes of an arc node. The solution is to just fill all the boxes on the jack instead  |
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Post by Netherby on Sept 13, 2017 1:24:58 GMT
I think we will probably get some better Cryx answers with new themes and/or merc allowances in existing themes.
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kaos
Junior Strategist
Posts: 268
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Post by kaos on Sept 13, 2017 5:21:26 GMT
Or we play out theme. The main issue is stealth, a couple of sniper can fell lots of guys (with no tough allowed if I'm not mistaken) and one can play widow makers, Kell (who also has a magical weapon, should you tool up for ghost fleet) and the marksman.
What we lack after all is a reliable anti stealth strategy involving no spriggan (that is absurdly expensive for what it does) and then we can shoot down the armored deads from far.
Vlad 2 can remove the clouds but need to be up on the field and removing the clouds do not in the end solve the problem since you can have a forest in the middle for them to prowl in.
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Post by skathrex on Sept 13, 2017 13:47:18 GMT
kaos You have the common misconception about GF-Host. Snipers are good against ArcNodes and Pirates. Into Dark Host they are usally really bad. Dark Host normally runs WE+2 Units of Riders. They can shoot the min Bane Warrior/Knight Unit that is usally behind the Riders but thats not a good plan in general. In General the pairing of GF/Host adds to the questions that where asked before und they ask different ones. GF wants RFP and shooting, if possible in combination. Host is really good into shooting. Both want magical Weapons, depending on the caster Host needs some RFP too. Armchair Warrior Your general ideas are not bad. Snipers have the problem that they are more a tool against GF than against Host. As I mentioned shooting will never be good against Host, but a Spriggan is something I thought about too. Even also with Andrej, because of the +2 speed. Stealth removal is also good against the stalker, but I don't know if that helps at all thx to def 15. Now that I type this. forget Andrej, energizer also gives +2 Speed. The Destroyer is meh, especially on Andrej, so maybe hes not the right thing, but I am not sure. The Marksman is awesome atm and also really good against Arcnodes. I ran this version: conflictchamber.com/#c3201b_-0fdI7q7t7teQ8t868H7Z7-7Y7Wi6Khador Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Winter Guard Kommand (Butcher 3) Kommander Zoktavir, The Butcher Unleashed [+22] - Devastator [14] - Marauder [10] - Marauder [10] - Ruin [17] Kovnik Jozef Grigorovich [4] Battle Mechaniks (min) [3] - Battle Mechanik Officer [3] Winter Guard Field Gun Crew [0(4)] Winter Guard Mortar Crew [0(5)] Winter Guard Rifle Corps (max) [13] - Winter Guard Rocketeer (3) [6] Winter Guard Gun Carriage [17] Which worked quite well into both. But I am also not really happy with the GC. Breakdown of my thoughts. Shooting is really good against Fleet, because it controlls the fleet nicely, you just have to protect it from the Blackbanes. And don't take to much, because of SR17 terrain. Jacks don't do a lot against the fleet, but sometimes can take out a few models with SoD. They also screen your shooting elements against stalkers and the likes and "occupy" their pirates. Against Host the roles switch. Rockets can do a bit, but in general your infantry is wortheless against a capable opponent/coven/terrain. But they act nicely as a screen for your Jacks, because those do a lot. Dark Host doesn't have de models to survive loosing some. If you have 5 Jacks (or 4 and a GC) you are likely going to win the attrition, just watch out for scenario. Butcher3 himself is something the Host really doesn't like. You gave me another Idea and I will try the Spriggan in the future.
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Post by maleficoru on Sept 13, 2017 16:41:05 GMT
I have been set on this list into cryx for a while now and it has done very well:
War Room Army
Khador - Kill! Maim! Burn!
Theme: Winter Guard Kommand
2 / 2 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Kommander Zoktavir, the Butcher Unleashed - WJ: +22
- War Argus
- War Dog - PC: 3
- Ruin - PC: 17 (Battlegroup Points Used: 17)
- Devastator - PC: 14 (Battlegroup Points Used: 5)
- Devastator - PC: 14
Winter Guard Gun Carriage - PC: 17
Kovnik Jozef Grigorovich - PC: 4
Winter Guard Field Gun Crew - Gunner & 2 Grunts: 0
Winter Guard Field Gun Crew - Gunner & 2 Grunts: 0
Winter Guard Rifle Corps - Leader & 5 Grunts: 8
- Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2
- Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2
- Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2
Winter Guard Rifle Corps - Leader & 5 Grunts: 8
- Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2
- Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2
- Winter Guard Rocketeer - PC: 2
THEME: Winter Guard Kommand
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GENERATED : 07/20/2017 08:32:50
BUILD ID : 2045.17-07-09
In general it plays very much like a mk2 protect the butcher list which plays the kill things that can hurt butcher through trades using the devastators to each jack and weapon master charges that you force by cramming the devastators butcher and ruin down their throat.
VS GF
Fun carriage will usually die to debuff overload however if I can get one or two of the pirate leaders then its job is done, also it projects a massive threat to any warcaster let alone a squishy one like Denny if they ever leave her within charge range.
VS DH
I typically run into two versions of this list; Snoreshade for more recursion or Skarre1 with double wraith engine.
Snoreshade is the easier of the two match-ups and you can generally bully it quite well with SoD on just about anything to however prime targets are unit leaders of banes to stop mini feats and tartar sauce or Daggre wraith to cut out their support.
The Skarre double Wraith engine is always a very tricky dance, the optimal scenario is killing one of the wraith engines before they get their feat turn, if you cant accomplish that you are in for a very grindy game.
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