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Post by tjhairball on Aug 16, 2017 3:33:39 GMT
Tried two lists in theme: Z1 -Conquest 4x doomie unit Fenris 2x free seer free koldun mechs I don't think doomie spam will work. Their glass cannon equation is not enough on a cannon side to justify the glass side for their price. They don't do enough without buffs compared to fangs and if buffs are involved fangs become even better. You need like 40 of them to be really scary and that was how they won in mk2, but all good things come to an end. Okay, some thoughts. Doomies went up in price, effectively (6=> 13). Doomies plus escorts stayed the same effective price (8=> 16). If doomie spam is going to be effective in this environment, it's probably going to be using Doomies with UAs. Not so sure it can be, but that's what I would try.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Aug 16, 2017 4:42:41 GMT
Doomies went up in price, effectively (6=> 13). Doomies plus escorts stayed the same effective price (8=> 16). The way I see it, one MkII point is about 1.875 MKIII points, based on the assumption that the game size moved from 56 points to 105 points (if we use 104 and 55.5 points as averages then we get a less pleasant 1.87387; I like the first number better). So I would say that they are still slightly more expensive, even with the UA. I don't mean to try to contradict your argument, I just feel like the rough estimate of "1 MkII point = 2 MkIII points" was fine before MkIII dropped, but we know now that it's not quite right. But back on topic, doomie spam was only a thing in Mad Dogs, where they got a discount to 5 points. Most people did not run UA's on every unit; most lists I recall had around 2 UAs. PP seems to have applied the old discount in the form of free UAs (or solos), which makes some sense I guess, and will probably make more sense when we see what new models they have planned that will work in-theme.
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Post by tjhairball on Aug 16, 2017 16:55:57 GMT
Doomies went up in price, effectively (6=> 13). Doomies plus escorts stayed the same effective price (8=> 16). The way I see it, one MkII point is about 1.875 MKIII points, based on the assumption that the game size moved from 56 points to 105 points (if we use 104 and 55.5 points as averages then we get a less pleasant 1.87387; I like the first number better). So I would say that they are still slightly more expensive, even with the UA. I don't mean to try to contradict your argument, I just feel like the rough estimate of "1 MkII point = 2 MkIII points" was fine before MkIII dropped, but we know now that it's not quite right. But back on topic, doomie spam was only a thing in Mad Dogs, where they got a discount to 5 points. Most people did not run UA's on every unit; most lists I recall had around 2 UAs. PP seems to have applied the old discount in the form of free UAs (or solos), which makes some sense I guess, and will probably make more sense when we see what new models they have planned that will work in-theme. Fair enough. Running an average of the ratio of Mk III to Mk III points for units gives ~1.8 for our units and about ~1.8 for the faction (solos running slightly higher and warjacks running slightly lower) which makes the Doomreavers look pretty rough. I suppose that looking at it from that perspective, the Doomreavers had the third-worst price shift in the entire faction (max units of Outriders being second, and the War Dog being of course the worst).
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Post by smoothcriminal on Aug 16, 2017 18:17:25 GMT
Old list allowed you to have up to 50 doomies I think. New one allows 30 max, which in my experience is not enough. Now if we could use caster points to take them it would be 48 which probably be good enough, but alas.
I think the optimal list for this theme is ~40 pt of infantry, 2 free seers and 5-6 jacks. And those 40pt of infantry can be either 3x naked doomie units, 2x doomie units with ternions/kolduns to help hit or 2x outriders.
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Post by tapecrawler on Aug 23, 2017 16:02:14 GMT
The thing about Doomies is not only did they get a price increase but they also lost Abomination. This made positioning tricky outside of B2 Mad Dogs but it was a serious consideration for your opponent. One Doomie could remove an entire unit by getting 3" away. It didn't always work but when it did it could destroy the opponent's game plan.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Aug 23, 2017 19:12:03 GMT
Based on a conversation I had with Will Hungerford at GenCon, I will guess that the Dev team will be receptive to a point decrease on the Doomreavers during CID. If their stats remain unchanged I'd argue 10 points seems about right:.. and at that level I think the POW of their swords should increase by +1.
And Fenris should also see his Str increase by +1 as well.
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Post by Voodoogk on Aug 23, 2017 20:51:19 GMT
This isn't my tech to claim, I believe it's Bubba Dalton's. Oldwitch2 casting windstorm over koldun lords means you cannot shoot the lord with 14 inch guns or less, and of course even then you just got your thing with a 15"+gun within 10" of a whole lot of counterpunch. With two assumably free lords large swaths of Old witch's control area won't just be lower range shooting, they will be zero shooting. Sounds relatively back breaking for guns, especially when the list is also full of doom reavers and good melee jacks (and a rager for the lord why not). Mind you she still has a damage swing for the reavers, bringing them to pow14 equivalent. I think it's going to account for some of the stronger khador tech you're ever going to see.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Aug 23, 2017 21:25:26 GMT
I don't get the OW + koldun lord combo.
You cast OW spell. Then position koldun lords so their auras start exactly 5" deep into OW's control. Which in practice means they're in b2b with her. So in 9" bubble no shooting allowed, in 9-14" (that OW can make 9-18") bubble their guns get reduced by 5" and still can't shoot.
Is this how you're supposed to do it?
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Post by Voodoogk on Aug 23, 2017 21:35:48 GMT
I don't get the OW + koldun lord combo. You cast OW spell. Then position koldun lords so their auras start exactly 5" deep into OW's control. Which in practice means they're in b2b with her. So in 9" bubble no shooting allowed, in 9-14" (that OW can make 9-18") bubble their guns get reduced by 5" and still can't shoot. Is this how you're supposed to do it? Yeah, usually using the 18" bubble, I'm going to guess the 18" bubble + windstorm is what she's going to be doing every turn in any match where shooting might be an issue. In which case you can play around with the no-shooting bubble quite a bit. You definitely need to factor in the range of their long guns so they cant just out range it and shoot the lord from outside the windstorm.
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Aug 24, 2017 0:39:49 GMT
This isn't my tech to claim, I believe it's Bubba Dalton's. Oldwitch2 casting windstorm over koldun lords means you cannot shoot the lord with 14 inch guns or less, and of course even then you just got your thing with a 15"+gun within 10" of a whole lot of counterpunch. With two assumably free lords large swaths of Old witch's control area won't just be lower range shooting, they will be zero shooting. Sounds relatively back breaking for guns, especially when the list is also full of doom reavers and good melee jacks (and a rager for the lord why not). Mind you she still has a damage swing for the reavers, bringing them to pow14 equivalent. I think it's going to account for some of the stronger khador tech you're ever going to see. I was contemplating this tech during my flight last week, I think it's probably the best way to deliver Doomies we got.
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Post by leotherat on Aug 24, 2017 0:52:00 GMT
I'm using artifice of deviation from Irusk2. I can fit Fenris and a whole unit of reavers + UA in the 5" circle. Def 17 isn't easy for most things to hit even with a boost.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Aug 24, 2017 2:11:14 GMT
This is my next playtest...
War Room Army
Khador - OW2 Winter
Zevanna Agha, The Fate Keeper - WJ: +27 - Juggernaut - PC: 12 (Battlegroup Points Used: 12) - Juggernaut - PC: 12 (Battlegroup Points Used: 12) - Marauder - PC: 10 (Battlegroup Points Used: 3) - Marauder - PC: 10 - Marauder - PC: 10
Fenris - PC: 9 Koldun Lord - PC: 0 Koldun Lord - PC: 0
Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 13 Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 13 Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 13
I plan to use terrain and the 18" + 9" no shooting zones to deliver the doom reavers, and after you kill them I still have 5 heavies.
I want to see how it plays, but could imagine dropping a unit for a Kodiak although I do like two Koldun Lords for redundancy. An alternative would be to swap a unit of reavers for min Outriders (potentially a better drop into Ghost Fleet), which leaves one point to put in a Rager (for a Marauder) or Kodiak (for a Juggernaut) which might be good. Needs some testing.
I don't know if this will be better than OW in Jaws or WGK, but I miss my doomreavers.
I've also thought about Strakhov but worry the doomies will melt to any list with a unit of 10"+ guns.
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Post by Voodoogk on Aug 24, 2017 2:38:12 GMT
I'm using artifice of deviation from Irusk2. I can fit Fenris and a whole unit of reavers + UA in the 5" circle. Def 17 isn't easy for most things to hit even with a boost. Still easier than impossible
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Post by leotherat on Aug 24, 2017 12:04:13 GMT
But your reavers are still vulnerable to be hit/destroyed by blast damage (someone just trying for a lucky drift).
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Post by Cirga on Aug 24, 2017 12:22:48 GMT
But your reavers are still vulnerable to be hit/destroyed by blast damage (someone just trying for a lucky drift). The doomrevers would be blast immune thanks to Solid Ground. Irusk2 can pretty reliably deliver at least a single doomreaver unit, more if you're willing to pack as many as you can completely within artifice.
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