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Post by gobber on Aug 13, 2017 2:08:04 GMT
Battle wizard is tough as balls to pull off with the Koldun Lord and the Outriders. Impact attacks and the boosted charge attack at least make that way easier than it used to be
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Aug 13, 2017 2:30:13 GMT
Battle wizard is tough as balls to pull off with the Koldun Lord and the Outriders. Impact attacks and the boosted charge attack at least make that way easier than it used to be No I mean he has to run far up ahead and you have to hope to catch them in the pretty small overall bubble of an effect.
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Post by borderprince on Aug 13, 2017 12:25:56 GMT
Impact attacks and the boosted charge attack at least make that way easier than it used to be No I mean he has to run far up ahead and you have to hope to catch them in the pretty small overall bubble of an effect. Indeed - changing Leadership to Granted would make a big difference to the effectiveness of Battle Wizard and make the Koldun Lord a great inclusion wtih Outriders.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Aug 13, 2017 13:42:22 GMT
That's a good idea. I think PP has generally been accepting feedback to any model included in a theme force during the CID process. So far we have:
- Change Doomreavers to Sacred Ward in theme (best case). I think if we got that then we'd probably lose the free upkeeps in round 1 since that would be 3 big benefits instead of the usual two. I'd take the trade.
- Or, as an alternative, make doomreavers eligible targets for friendly graylord spell. I don't like that nearly as much but that does make the Ternion relevant for producing cloudwalls, and that solves (or helps solve) the doomreaver delivery problem for just 7 points.
- Change the Koldun's battle wizard to Granted.
- Forge Seers. Let's talk about them. Jack marshaling isn't good, and our casters who want to take them don't want jack marshalls. I would change the Empower ability to also grant magical weapons so any jack can get it and the empower gains some utility. There are are changes that would help these guys, but that's the big one. My other idea, because they are forge SEERS, would be the abolition to give eyeless sight (maybe to the marshalled jack).
- Reduce the point cost of doom reavers to 12. Look, they're way overcosted outside theme. And, I'd like to be able to drop 6 units. With all the great shooting out there I just don't think this would be OP.
- other ideas?
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Post by tjhairball on Aug 13, 2017 14:54:46 GMT
A lot of the theme armies that PP have released so far have been very close to some of the Mk2 theme armies. We've been looking at this preview from a Mad Dogs point of view, but don't forget that Zerkova1 and Zerkova2 theme forces both had Doom Reavers in them. Also, the Zerkova2 theme army back in Mk2 allowed a Mercenary unit as long as Valachev was attached to it - at Tier 1. If PP really wanted to recreate the "insignificant people are insignificant" feel that the Greylords seem to have about them, and push for more inclusion of Mercenaries in theme lists, I think that it would be an excellent opportunity for PP. So what do you guys think this list would be like if it had access to a Merc squad under Valachev? What would it be like if it had a second unit, a solo, and a battle engine like they wanted to try with the last CID? Pointedly, this theme has the same exact name as the first Zerkova1 theme force. The specific benefit of that Zerkova1 theme force was, in fact, adding a free Greylord escort. Of course, in point terms, you're looking at adding Koldun Lords / Forge Seers for free. If the preview is correct in allowing all greylords, it would have to somehow allow Valachev, right? :-P Being able to start with upkeeps on Doom Reavers, if that turns out to be possible, would open up some interesting possibilities. This looks really nice for Old Witch 1: - First, it allows the GLT that Old Witch 1 really needs to have (for Prowl purposes) in a theme force with the accompanying benefits. It is incredibly difficult for Old Witch 1 to function at full effectiveness in other themes.
- Second, Old Witch 1 has 4 (!) upkeeps. She can normally only cast 3 of them on Turn 1. This lets you put down 3 of them before turn 1, which opens up a lot of options for exciting plays.
- Third, Old Witch has Field Marshal: Apparition already - this synergizes nicely with adding it to units.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Aug 13, 2017 14:59:44 GMT
Im still shocked that cold immunity is not granted to tge jacks.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Aug 13, 2017 16:16:29 GMT
Battle wizard is tough as balls to pull off with the Koldun Lord and the Outriders. How is it hard? Outriders' move on charge is 11", Koldun's move + bubble is 15". If he's anywhere near them at the start of turn he doesn't even need to run and can move and cast whatever.
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Post by welshhoppo on Aug 13, 2017 16:23:01 GMT
Because the Koldun Lord has old man stats and dies to your average pow10 gun.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Aug 13, 2017 16:29:30 GMT
Its not getting 1 outrider in the bubble. Its getting 5.
Its more difficult in practice then paper.
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Post by borderprince on Aug 13, 2017 17:54:39 GMT
Battle wizard is tough as balls to pull off with the Koldun Lord and the Outriders. How is it hard? Outriders' move on charge is 11", Koldun's move + bubble is 15". If he's anywhere near them at the start of turn he doesn't even need to run and can move and cast whatever. Try it with large-based Outriders. Especially as neither the Outriders nor Koldun Lord can avoid free strikes/move through models (so maybe some game with Zerkova1?). It's difficult to get more than one or two of them where you want/need to go and within the CMD bubble, without telegraphing it so far in advance that it can be prevented easily. At that point it's more a cute trick than a really useful ability. Leadership abilities are much easier to use on small-based models who can cram into the area affected.
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Post by sand20go on Aug 15, 2017 2:17:13 GMT
How is it hard? Outriders' move on charge is 11", Koldun's move + bubble is 15". If he's anywhere near them at the start of turn he doesn't even need to run and can move and cast whatever. Try it with large-based Outriders. Especially as neither the Outriders nor Koldun Lord can avoid free strikes/move through models (so maybe some game with Zerkova1?). It's difficult to get more than one or two of them where you want/need to go and within the CMD bubble, without telegraphing it so far in advance that it can be prevented easily. At that point it's more a cute trick than a really useful ability. Leadership abilities are much easier to use on small-based models who can cram into the area affected. The "cute" times I have pulled it off with Z2 are pretty hysterical. Charge 12. Kill (cause of three dice to hit on Cav under MK3) - Spray - Repo 5. Spray again when feat occurs. It is ball busting.
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Post by jonnyboy on Aug 15, 2017 11:21:34 GMT
Been thinking about running OW1 in this new theme. We don't know everything yet, but we can know that free models will be a thing.
This is my list so far, does not include free models (most likely koldun lord and 2 escorts) and is down 15 points.
War Room Army
Khador - Witch In The Shadows
Theme: No Theme Selected 60 / 75 Army
The Old Witch of Khador - WJ: +18 - Scrapjack - Juggernaut - PC: 12 (Battlegroup Points Used: 12) - Juggernaut - PC: 12 (Battlegroup Points Used: 6)
Fenris - PC: 9 - Fenris (Continued)
Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 13 Doom Reaver Swordsmen - Leader & 5 Grunts: 13 Greylord Ternion - Leader & 2 Grunts: 7 Greylord Outriders - Leader & 2 Grunts: 12
Old witch can use her feat and murder of crows to prevent mass infantry from shooting down one unit of doomies. GLT can provide a cloud wall while the other unit advances. Split GLO and Fenris on the flanks. If we can upkeep on doomies, they both will effectively have pathfinder and one with IF. This list so far brings some good survivability to the doomies, can munch on infantry, but lacks real armor cracking. Low model count for an infantry list opens you up to warnoun shooty lists (boosted shots won't have an issue).
Advice on how to fill these last 15 points? I was thinking a third jack, maaaybe a jugger and an escort. Use free points for escort and two koldun lords.
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Post by borderprince on Aug 15, 2017 17:21:09 GMT
Try it with large-based Outriders. Especially as neither the Outriders nor Koldun Lord can avoid free strikes/move through models (so maybe some game with Zerkova1?). It's difficult to get more than one or two of them where you want/need to go and within the CMD bubble, without telegraphing it so far in advance that it can be prevented easily. At that point it's more a cute trick than a really useful ability. Leadership abilities are much easier to use on small-based models who can cram into the area affected. The "cute" times I have pulled it off with Z2 are pretty hysterical. Charge 12. Kill (cause of three dice to hit on Cav under MK3) - Spray - Repo 5. Spray again when feat occurs. It is ball busting. Happy to concede you're a better player than I. My opponents have a disconcerting habit of putting a hard shell around the soft centre. Which is really the opposite of what Outriders want to see. They can't go through it, so have to go around it. But then most/all are out of the leadership bubble.
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Post by sand20go on Aug 15, 2017 17:34:49 GMT
If they do that use your outriders as skirmishers and "blockers" - ergo moving in and spraying and then Repoing back to either outside of threat range, or, if need be, into a position where they screen your jacks so you can send them in the following turn..... You won't get the _DIRECT_ benefit of battlewizard - just the indirect of forcing your opponent to react tactically which then opens up another exploit (skirmishing with POW 12s and providing a positioning advantage.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Aug 15, 2017 22:23:53 GMT
Tried two lists in theme:
Z1 -Conquest 4x doomie unit Fenris 2x free seer free koldun mechs
I don't think doomie spam will work. Their glass cannon equation is not enough on a cannon side to justify the glass side for their price. They don't do enough without buffs compared to fangs and if buffs are involved fangs become even better. You need like 40 of them to be really scary and that was how they won in mk2, but all good things come to an end.
I think LoS will still be the go-to melee infantry theme. Except probably OW2. Doomies will melt things with Curse like Cryx currently does. 1 good caster won't make me buy all them doomies though.
I can still see doomies in some combined arms list supporting bunch of jacks for casters who lack damage. OW1, Hark, Malakov (he even has nice battleplans for them), etc.
The list other was: V2 -3x juggy 2x Outriders 1x doomies with free ua Fenris 2x free seers mechs
Outriders I liked a lot. Pow 12 sprays with hof/s&p hurt. Pathfinder+repo 5 allows for great terrain abuse in sr 2017. Their statline doesn't make them free kills for ranged either and against melee they can keep 13" distance.
I think Vlad 1/2 + 2x Outriders + something (jacks?) will be the anti-Cryx meta list. Definitely better than wgk.
Consider: Vlad 1 -2x juggy -marauder 2x seer + 2x marshalled destroyers 2x outriders Seems all around solid. Sure, you're worse than wgk against some mean gunline, but having solid Cryx drop is more valuable as we have many anti-gunline options already, but not much anti-Cryx.
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