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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Aug 8, 2017 21:39:29 GMT
Then test it and give them feedback. Would overlap but maybe rather than Apparation pitch in the CID that they get vengeance ;-) Id rather not. They are already expensive for abilities that trigger on death of a small 6 person unit to become relevant.
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Post by chillychinaman on Aug 8, 2017 21:57:22 GMT
killermuppetDid you go to battlecollege.wikispaces.com or battlecollege.org? The first one is for Mk2 and is outdated. I noticed because you have Errants on the list whom lost their ability for Purity.
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Post by zerosequence on Aug 8, 2017 22:01:19 GMT
I assumed vengeance would be a benefit of this theme. Lame that it's not.
Free turn 1 upkeep is generally not a big deal for Khador. Maybe Strak1 or Vlad2 like it, but not a whole lot else. Usually it's easy to get your spells out and charge anyway.
Apparition on a unit is ok but you have to live long enough to make use of it. Doomreavers and Greylords are not exactly known for survivability.
Free solos is meh unless we get Fenris, which we don't. But free Fane Knight?
Ultimately the problem is: how does this list win? You can build this list today out of theme, and it stinks. All you reallly get is the Apparition and a couple free UA or solos. The free stuff is pretty mediocre as well. Maybe there will be some new releases to shore it up. I hope.
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Post by killermuppet on Aug 8, 2017 22:05:19 GMT
killermuppet Did you go to battlecollege.wikispaces.com or battlecollege.org? The first one is for Mk2 and is outdated. I noticed because you have Errants on the list whom lost their ability for Purity. went to battlecollege.wikispaces.com/. Apparently they have not updated the site recently. Just my 2cp, -Da Muppet
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Aug 8, 2017 22:15:16 GMT
A few thoughts...
First, with what we know, the theme seems...pretty good? I'm assuming RAW it's (a) free medium or small based dude for every 20 points, (b) upkeeps start for free on any unit including your doom reavers, and (c) apparition on one non-warcaster unit (not model/unit). This is all pre-CID. Apparition is freaky. Whoever said Strakhov won't be good under this theme isn't appreciating the power of a unit of charging doomreavers (who survived because they had occultation) with a 17" non-linear threat. So, yeah, upkeeps and apparition on Fenris or doomreavers could be good. Free upkeeps on turn one are also good. I need to think more on whether it's enough to make it a great ball-busting theme but we need a theme with access to magic weapons and infantry clearing so...boom.
Second, if Spell Ward changes to Sacred Ward, Doomreavers will be great again. They are overcosted and collecting dust at 13 points. I really don't think they'll be over-powered in the current meta at 13 points with access to Sacred Ward in theme. When this theme hits CID, I will join the loud chorus of fellow khadorans lobbying to test this.
Third, I really, really hope Ruin is eligible in theme. It just...makes so much sense. Again, my voice will be added to that loud chorus. In terms of mercs/minions, I'd love for it to include "one solo and one unit with the Magic Ability." Thematic. Plugs some holes. Sneaking Orin, Sylys, Alexia and Aiyanna into some lists would be nice.
Fourth, scanning through War Room, if they allow Assault Kommandos into the MOW theme then we're covered on all units having a home. This seems so much simpler design wise, and actually I'd like the flexibility of playing AKs in that theme with one of the Strakhovs. The same thing is true for solos and attachments, except for Valachev, which seems like an easy fix that will be addressed when they allow mercs into some lists.
Fifth, I'm so excited that (a) they're releasing all of the themes in Sept, which means we'll get our MOW theme, but (b) they are committing to circling back to put all the themes through CID. That actually seems REALLY smart to me. It will give the community time to be doing real playtesting outside of CID with "approved" stuff which might change (so don't go buying 3 more units of Bombadiers just yet), with the certainty that if they broke something it's gonna get fixed.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Aug 8, 2017 22:22:49 GMT
Apparition on doomies even on 1 unit is big enough to consider the theme since you can pick where to apply it. I'd say Strakhov2 or Z1 can pull it off by protecting doomies with clouds. Also Z2 can finally play in theme for what it's worth. Maybe even OW will finally work? Who knows.
The biggest strength of the theme is that it autosolves the incorp+infantry spam problem aka Ghost fleet and other variations of it like Grymkin, Banes, etc.
Don't forget that Forge seers will probably be allowed, so going jackspam with some greylord sprays is also entirely possible. Umm, Vlad1 maybe?
Obviously it's broken with free upkeeps on doomies, but I'm sceptical about that working.
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Post by leotherat on Aug 8, 2017 22:27:26 GMT
Based on Mk2 they probably will not allow you to start with upkeeps on the reavers. Look at the Denny 1 list that allowed you to start with upkeeps on enemy units. It was said that you couldn't start with them on units that were sacred/spell warded. I believe the rationale was that if you normally could not apply the effect in game then you shouldn't be able to do so out of game.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Aug 8, 2017 22:40:03 GMT
leotherat, you might be right but I hope I'm not crazy. (Time will tell). smoothcriminal, I think OW will really like this theme. Turn 1 you get reconstruct out for free, so you can cast Windstorm and camp 4 or add 2 boundless charges to get the 9" distance on your jacks. An 18" screw you bubble gives her a way to reliably deliver the Reavers from everyone except the most dedicated gun lines. Apparition on a unit of Reavers is, as you say, serious business and her spell list - in particular Scourge and Curse of Shadows - help her doomreavers without needing to be cast on them. POW 14 weapon masters with a 13" threat. Yes please. I do hope we can bring A&H...
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Post by smoothcriminal on Aug 8, 2017 23:03:06 GMT
Check this out: Karchev - 7 jacks 3x Ternion free Seer
Now you have sprays out the wazoo to beat weaponmaster spam, can debuff def or even freeze to get around those pesky no-knockdown def skews and can cloud yourself to get hit less by those rat 4/5 big guns that didn't have to boost hits before.
3x Ternion can also be Outriders, just park them exactly and put freezer on so charging opponents will get frozen after beating your jacks allowing to murder them next turn.
Or a Malakov instead of Karchev. Some spray + backstab goodness and prowling ternions/outriders.
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Post by gobber on Aug 8, 2017 23:19:46 GMT
I think it may be unwarranted, but if there's concern about opening up doomreavers to the full suite of warcaster buffs... What about a theme rule: Greylord models may target friendly doomreaver models with spells. Walls off all the caster buffs save the Zerkovas' ghost walk and telgesh mark, and allows for ternion cloudwalls and whatnot.
...On another note, is anyone else surprised to not see Ruin in theme? I know it hasn't been explicitly rule out, but still...
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Post by killermuppet on Aug 8, 2017 23:38:24 GMT
If you are playing Butcher then you can include Ruin in you theme force, if memory serves me right. Goes with that whole affinity rule, granted will not work with other casters, but if you are going homicidal raging, hey go big or not at all.
Just my 2cp, -Da Muppet
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Post by gobber on Aug 9, 2017 0:04:56 GMT
If you are playing Butcher then you can include Ruin in you theme force, if memory serves me right. Of course. I'm referring to Ruin being allowed in theme with all casters. They're trying to include more of the character warnouns in themes (Mulg in PoD, Rok in Northkin, Behemoth in Jaws, Avatar in Creator's, etc) and Ruin seems like a natural fit for the Greylord theme (they made him out of a Juggy after all). Not that I would be opposed to them releasing new noncharacter jacks for the Greylords covenant...
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Aug 9, 2017 0:15:07 GMT
I think it may be unwarranted, but if there's concern about opening up doomreavers to the full suite of warcaster buffs... What about a theme rule: Greylord models may target friendly doomreaver models with spells. Walls off all the caster buffs save the Zerkovas' ghost walk and telgesh mark, and allows for ternion cloudwalls and whatnot. ...On another note, is anyone else surprised to not see Ruin in theme? I know it hasn't been explicitly rule out, but still... Ghost walk and telgish mark seem manageable, and being able to put clouds on doomirs would really help solve the issue that isn't really solved by the theme - delivery. If my dreams of sacred ward go unfulfilled, this is a nice compromise and...themeatic.
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Post by The Snark Knight on Aug 9, 2017 0:32:01 GMT
Ruin seems like a natural fit for the Greylord theme (they made him out of a Juggy after all). Just making sure I'm not crazy, but isn't Ruin a Kodiak?
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Post by gobber on Aug 9, 2017 0:48:42 GMT
Ruin seems like a natural fit for the Greylord theme (they made him out of a Juggy after all). Just making sure I'm not crazy, but isn't Ruin a Kodiak? I think you might be right, but I can't find it specified anywhere in Reckoning. I don't actually own the model but he definitely looks more like the new kodiak/grolar. I guess Butcher's bond represents the heavy boiler/pathfinder part? Also, in the course of this I just found out the source of the grolar's name: Grizzly/Polar bear hybrids are called Grolars or Pizzly bears.
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