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Post by sand20go on Aug 8, 2017 19:14:31 GMT
You know Ponies already have winters wind as a spell right? Yes...and you can't RUN them if you wish to cast it.
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Post by jonnyboy on Aug 8, 2017 19:20:23 GMT
Im not so sure about kayazy getting a theme, it seems like they were rolled into Jaws?
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Post by welshhoppo on Aug 8, 2017 19:23:33 GMT
Im not so sure about kayazy getting a theme, it seems like they were rolled into Jaws? We only have 2 Kayazy units anyway. maybe an irregular theme, Kayazy, Widowmakers and Kossites and stuff.
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Post by sand20go on Aug 8, 2017 19:26:30 GMT
Im not so sure about kayazy getting a theme, it seems like they were rolled into Jaws? We only have 2 Kayazy units anyway. maybe an irregular theme, Kayazy, Widowmakers and Kossites and stuff. All those are possible to bring in Jaws. You can get free widowmaker Marskman and Underbosses. I think the bigger issue is synergy - I think likely Irusk2 is really the only caster who loves BOTH the Kayazy and Jacks (and even then he isn't THAT much of a jack caster).
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wags
Junior Strategist
Posts: 102
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Post by wags on Aug 8, 2017 19:36:19 GMT
Oh, I've seen the rise of mixed arms. I've also had a few games in to grymkin already. I've also seen the rise of cryx and cygnar in my meta and long range boosted shooting. Outriders are ok, but they struggle in the cryx matchup because of rifles. And unless they change spell ward to sacred ward, doomies are still going to have the issue of getting removed before getting anywhere in meaningful numbers. It's just a really meh theme to me as the rules and models available currently stand. Not everything is going to be a winner.
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Post by jonnyboy on Aug 8, 2017 19:36:42 GMT
Would it satisfy people if AK were given AD and rolled into JAWs?
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Post by Cryptix on Aug 8, 2017 19:39:30 GMT
I'd rather they're put with MOW and count for free points since they work together in the fluff.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Aug 8, 2017 19:44:15 GMT
I would be enormously surprised if doom reavers lost spell ward. Doom reavers with spells on them would very quickly become OP. This as a person with 3 units with attachments dying to be used. Spellward prevents you from targeting a model/unit with spells, it doesn't necessarily make a model/unit immune to magic (for example, targeting another model with a magical spray allows you to make attack rolls against spellwarded models that you would not have been able to target directly), so they don't need to lose spell-ward, the wording of the theme force benefit should just make it clear that they can (or cannot) start the game with upkeeps on them. If they keep Spellward but you can put upkeeps on them at the start, it will be a nice bonus, but not nearly as powerful as being able to cast spells on them anytime. First of all you'd be limited to upkeeps. Second if the spell was dispelled you wouldn't be able to re-apply it. Third you wouldn't be able to put spells where they're needed, you'd just have to try to get the right unit into the right place. Fourth your opponents will have a much easier time playing around the spells than they would if you could put each spell where you needed it. ...etc. Also, don't Protectorate have sacred-warded weaponmaster units? Could we do anything with sacred-warded Doomreavers that would be more OP than Protectorate already can? Just wondering, I don't know much about Protectorate.
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Post by sand20go on Aug 8, 2017 19:46:01 GMT
Oh, I've seen the rise of mixed arms. I've also had a few games in to grymkin already. I've also seen the rise of cryx and cygnar in my meta and long range boosted shooting. Outriders are ok, but they struggle in the cryx matchup because of rifles. And unless they change spell ward to sacred ward, doomies are still going to have the issue of getting removed before getting anywhere in meaningful numbers. It's just a really meh theme to me as the rules and models available currently stand. Not everything is going to be a winner. I "guess". The rifles are minus 5 into the ponies. They need 8s even with Redgrave. So surely going to 2 man. That puts them at Dice -3 which STILL leaves them OK. Definitely they out threat them (except for Z2). However, under Dash and Appration you now threaten the same. Under OW2 you vastly outthreat them. Can you theory machine run them over a table top with no terrain and no defensive tech. No. Nor should you. But I am "confused" what Grymkin list you played into. The ones I have faced all have Stealth on demand Arcana which means you better have sprays or you are getting Neighslayers with Fury into your jacks and 3D6+2 on damage has been known to hurt badly.
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Post by borderprince on Aug 8, 2017 19:50:05 GMT
What would make this theme much better would be if Doom Reavers lost spell ward and gained sacred ward. Probably too difficult to balance around all the casters, at least quickly/easily. A special rule allowing Doomreavers to be targeted by friendly Greylord spells could work - only casters designated as Greylords (Zerkova 1 +2 and Karchev) would need to be balanced around it. I think apparition has to be the selling point of the theme for most casters.
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Post by sand20go on Aug 8, 2017 19:51:21 GMT
I would be enormously surprised if doom reavers lost spell ward. Doom reavers with spells on them would very quickly become OP. This as a person with 3 units with attachments dying to be used. Spellward prevents you from targeting a model/unit with spells, it doesn't necessarily make a model/unit immune to magic (for example, targeting another model with a magical spray allows you to make attack rolls against spellwarded models that you would not have been able to target directly), so they don't need to lose spell-ward, the wording of the theme force benefit should just make it clear that they can (or cannot) start the game with upkeeps on them. If they keep Spellward but you can put upkeeps on them at the start, it will be a nice bonus, but not nearly as powerful as being able to cast spells on them anytime. First of all you'd be limited to upkeeps. Second if the spell was dispelled you wouldn't be able to re-apply it. Third you wouldn't be able to put spells where they're needed, you'd just have to try to get the right unit into the right place. Fourth your opponents will have a much easier time playing around the spells than they would if you could put each spell where you needed it. ...etc. Also, don't Protectorate have sacred-warded weaponmaster units? Could we do anything with sacred-warded Doomreavers that would be more OP than Protectorate already can? Just wondering, I don't know much about Protectorate. Protectorate has a fair amount of range extenders. But it doesn't have common access to Hand of Fate, Battle Lust or Fury. We also have Iron Flesh and a caster with occultation. The Knights _DO_ have their mini feat but that is a mini Feat (and possible to avoid by removing the 5 point attachment). They also TEND to be a bit more glass cannon on at least the Knights and the Exemps hit at POW 9. As many of us have tried out - Vlad2's super serum turns them into gods. Probably a good thing now that said I think they should have stayed at POW 13 (or even gone up to POW 14) cause it isn't that hard to remove infantry grunts models in MK3.
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Post by sand20go on Aug 8, 2017 20:06:26 GMT
OH!!! You know what you can do with Apparition prior to the start of a turn (and when you have Fenris).
YOu can the turn before get your doomies INTO one of the very common forests that are supposed to be in the game...or behind some buildings....or otherwise out of LOS. you can then PLACE THEM 2 inches so now they have LOS. And with Fenris around you can then CHARGE THEM ignoring effects. Damm good times.
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Post by killermuppet on Aug 8, 2017 21:00:22 GMT
Per BattleCollege
Spell Ward - This model may not be targeted by spells, neither friendly nor enemy
Sacred Ward - This model cannot be targeted by enemy spells. Friendly spells are fine.
Units with Spell Ward: Cygnar: Precursor Knights and Officer and Standard (UA). Khador: Doom Reavers and Greylord Escort (UA), Fenris. Protectorate: Covenant of Menoth. Retribution: Nayl, Soulless Voidtracer. Mercs: Precursor Knights and Officer and Standard (UA). Circle: Pureblood Warpwolf, Woldwrath. Skorne: Cataphracht Cetrati (UA). Minions: Maximus, Thrullg.
Units with Sacred Ward: Khador: Obavnik Kommander Zerkova & Reaver Guard. Protectorate: Avatar of Menoth, Exemplar Errants Officer and Standard (UA), Grand Scrutator Severius, Indictor. Retribution: Hypnos. Mercs: Harlan Versh. Circle: Brennos the Elderhorn.
Hope you all find this useful,
Just my 2cp,
-Da Muppet
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Aug 8, 2017 21:21:57 GMT
I don't see the Doom Reavers with Sacred Ward as a problem (Maybe only in theme force?). They are the second hardest hitting infantry unit in the game, but they share that honor with the Ret Sentinels. Except like 1/2 as survivable.
They're also one of the most expensive units in Khador.
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Post by sand20go on Aug 8, 2017 21:26:17 GMT
I don't see the Doom Reavers with Sacred Ward as a problem (Maybe only in theme force?). They are the second hardest hitting infantry unit in the game, but they share that honor with the Ret Sentinels. Except like 1/2 as survivable. They're also one of the most expensive units in Khador. Then test it and give them feedback. Would overlap but maybe rather than Apparation pitch in the CID that they get vengeance ;-)
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