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Post by haraldtorvatn on Aug 1, 2017 12:45:42 GMT
I dont really understand what you mean. What I said is that a list which can fight Kharchev well is a list which is able to fight a much larger number of lists than a list which will fight Denegra 1/ghost fleet well. Do you disagree with that? Yes, I'm saying that a list that is made to fight infantry spam, with a few tweaks, is a solid drop into Ghost Fleet and those tweaks are also useful in other matchups. The meta has evolved back to needing an answer for infantry as well as armour, where in the beginning you only needed to counter box spam and maybe control. It seems like we agree: Any anti armor list can fight Karchev armor skew. An anti infantery list still requires tweaks to fight gost fleet.
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Munindk
Junior Strategist
Posts: 210
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Post by Munindk on Aug 1, 2017 12:56:57 GMT
I think the main difference between Incorporeal skew and ARM skew is that with the latter, you can boost or use low to middle POW attacks in volume and hope to get lucky with dice spikes. If you come up against Incorporeal skew with no other magic attacks than your caster, the only thing you can really try is to focus fire when the Incorporeal stuff attacks. Most players should be able to avoid or minimize this tactic.
That said, I dislike all skew and spam lists, since they make the game very rock paper scissors.
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Post by pangurban on Aug 1, 2017 13:05:34 GMT
Yes, I'm saying that a list that is made to fight infantry spam, with a few tweaks, is a solid drop into Ghost Fleet and those tweaks are also useful in other matchups. The meta has evolved back to needing an answer for infantry as well as armour, where in the beginning you only needed to counter box spam and maybe control. It seems like we agree: Any anti armor list can fight Karchev armor skew. An anti infantery list still requires tweaks to fight gost fleet. I disagree to an extent. You don't need to be able to RFP to deal with Ghost Fleet, and with a caster that can get involved you don't need a lot of magical attacks either. You do need them if Denny1 is multiplying GF's output though.
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Post by Gamingdevil on Aug 1, 2017 13:12:04 GMT
Yes, I'm saying that a list that is made to fight infantry spam, with a few tweaks, is a solid drop into Ghost Fleet and those tweaks are also useful in other matchups. The meta has evolved back to needing an answer for infantry as well as armour, where in the beginning you only needed to counter box spam and maybe control. It seems like we agree: Any anti armor list can fight Karchev armor skew. An anti infantery list still requires tweaks to fight gost fleet. That's actually not what I said at all in my other post. There are still multiple variations of armor skew, Karchev adds a load of counter charges into the mix, which makes it dangerous for another jack army to engage and hard for an infantry army to engage what they want, never mind losing a bunch to all those counter charges. Where a different armour/box skew like Amon will be highly resistant to shooting and magic or Helena that can heal back a large amount of damage after weathering your alpha. General infantry hate lists can be altered to cover the Ghost Fleet matchup while still being viable into other things. You just won't roflstomp the Ghost Fleet list. One list is not the same as another and covering as many bases as possible is what wins you games. That's what I was saying.
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Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605
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Post by Deller on Aug 1, 2017 21:47:49 GMT
Yes, I'm saying that a list that is made to fight infantry spam, with a few tweaks, is a solid drop into Ghost Fleet and those tweaks are also useful in other matchups. The meta has evolved back to needing an answer for infantry as well as armour, where in the beginning you only needed to counter box spam and maybe control. It seems like we agree: Any anti armor list can fight Karchev armor skew. An anti infantery list still requires tweaks to fight gost fleet. I find that comparison to be a bit disingenuous. Karchev was the Original Armor skew that people built for, while Ghost Fleet was not the original infantry skew. Yes anti infantry lists needed tweaks to a new threat. A more apt comparison would be looking at how many anti armor lists built for Karchev had to adjust and tweak for Zaal2, Lucant theme, or Baldur2. While some factions didn't need to adapt to new flavors or armor skew because they had a catch all answer, not everyone can get away with that.
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Post by finnigan2004 on Aug 2, 2017 15:01:58 GMT
Armor (more or less of it) is so common that all lists must bring an answer to it. Karchev may be the one bvringing most, but if you bring stuff which caps out at pow 12, you not only lose to Karchev, you lose to almost every good list. And guess what, if you bring more armor cracking stuff, you not only tech for karchev, you tech for a lot of lists, inn all factions. If instead you spend your points teching against incorporeal and recursions, you spend your points on something which is relevant only against a few lists. So I just want to be clear, it's 100% acceptable that High armor skews the game so hard that every list pair needs to included an anti armor drop (just like how in mark2 Cryx skewed the game so everyone needed an infantry drop) or you lose, but when Deneghra requires different answers it's OP? I don't want to play a game where Armor Spam is the only good list option. Neither one is acceptable, when I also need an answer to gunlines in my two list pairing.
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