|
Post by pangurban on Jul 30, 2017 13:25:46 GMT
I want more things that exist like Deneghra1 Ghost Fleet that attack the meta on a different axis and require different tools & strategies to beat. More strategic diversity creates more interesting and complex gameplay, as opposed to the start of Mark3 where all people did was bring High Armor & Box spam. Seeing how two different strategies clash is interesting. I find it boring when everyone's basically doing the same thing and it's just a matter of who does it better. The problem is that when the skew becomes that extreme and weakness-free, it's not "strategies clash", it's "game is decided at deployment because I didn't bring mass RFP that works on undead, or my faction doesn't HAVE mass RFP that works on undead". And I'll say it again, it's relatively easy to counter-build vs any one list. The question should be "Should every faction be required to counter-build vs this single list in a single faction in order for the game to be merely tough rather than comically one-sided?" If you're going to fall back on "But it's fun!", well yes, it's probably fun to play, much like a Haley2 player is probably having fun when they're moving my pieces around to open up a jank assassination and then feating to get a free chance to do it again. But then we need to ask if it's any fun to play against. Not saying the undead recursion isn't good, but having played a couple of games against non-Denny Ghost Fleet without RFP I still feel the theme is not the problem. Ghost Fleet with the Coven or Terminus (arguably the best two casters for the theme after Denny1) is manageable without RFP, so I'm not sure it's entirely fair to speak of a gear check. There is that aspect to the list, but categorizing it as such implies that that's where the problem is and by my reckoning that's not correct.
|
|
|
Post by Azuresun on Jul 30, 2017 14:55:43 GMT
I've been required to have specific tools to stand a ghost of a chance against Karchev 10 heavies since the WTC showcased the list's power. This hasn't gone away at all in Mark3, the boogymen only changed faces. Instead of being Skarre1, Haley2, Deneghra2, Lylyth2, Harby, Asphyxious2, Bradigus, Fist, Runes, Meat Mountain the gear checks are Deneghra1, Haley2, Skarre1, Karchev/Harkevich, Vlad1, Caine3, Fyanna2, Ossrum, Baldur2 and Amon. Also what are these "weakness free" lists you're referring to, because I haven't seen one of those since Asphyxious2 was deservedly taken out back and bludgeoned with a nerf bat over and over. You don't need Band of Heroes level mass RFP to deal with Ghost Fleet. What you need is a way to shut down field promotion on 1-2 Revenant units. This can be through caster spells like Hellfire, Hellmouth, Crevasse, Shatter Storm, Silence of Death, or Explosivo. This could be through solos like Ragman, Alexia2, or Hutchuk, units like Dread Rots or Hellmouths, or a Battle Engine like the Sacral Vault. I'm assuming the Cryx player hasn't fallen asleep at the wheel here, and they're screening the leaders, and picking off RFP-capable models with everything-ignoring gunfire and arced sprays. Also, I'm not sure how acknowledging that there's other overpowered stuff makes GF any better. "We need broken stuff to handle the other broken stuff!" has never been a good defence of anything. Especially not when I've seen the "Counters are available, so this is not a problem." argument used to defend pre-nerf Haley2, Una2, and the frikkin' Hydra Super Laser.
|
|
|
Post by Cryptix on Jul 30, 2017 15:19:38 GMT
Yeah, now you're exaggerating. 9 models at most with a maximum of RAT 7 POW 13 on their own can ignore LOS. All you need to stop them coming back is at most 3 RFPs, and even killing one can lower the attrition. Deneghra's spells aren't so bad if you kill her 14/14 24 boxes with no defensive tech ARC node. It literally takes some POW 12s on average to knock it out of commission (either movement or ARC node.
|
|
|
Post by macdaddy on Jul 30, 2017 15:52:50 GMT
Yeah, now you're exaggerating. 9 models at most with a maximum of RAT 7 POW 13 on their own can ignore LOS. All you need to stop them coming back is at most 3 RFPs, and even killing one can lower the attrition. Deneghra's spells aren't so bad if you kill her 14/14 24 boxes with no defensive tech ARC node. It literally takes some POW 12s on average to knock it out of commission (either movement or ARC node. She only needs to use that Arc node once to cripple your army. Who cares how easy they are to killing they accomplish landing the spell they were bought to land. Also, her Feat allows things like her arc nodes to be pretty hard to remove if they are positioned properly. The issue ISNT GHOST FLEET the issue is Denny 1... Sometime I wonder how many people on here that defend Haley 2 and deny 1 as being non oppressive are the same people that got on CiD and Said battle bears were OP and madrack 1 Even Ground needed to be changed or taken away lol.
|
|
|
Post by Big Fat Troll on Jul 30, 2017 18:09:23 GMT
Deller Okay let's break it down. A couple simple questions here: 1) What happens when you don't have the answer to a gear check? For whatever reason, regardless of why. Is there counter play? If so, what is it and is that reliable? And you can apply this to any situation, but right here we're talking about Ghost Fleet. 2) Isn't Incorporeal qualitatively different from other skews like boxes, swarms, armor, or DEF? Yes, recursion can be overcome through sheer brute force, by wiping out the entire unit. That is easier said than done, but it is often doable. Yes, it is wise to bring something other than your caster in every list that can kill a Feralgeist, but that is entirely different from having an entire unit or a battle engine that you simply cannot deal with at all until your opponent attacks with it. Ghost Fleet has other synergies that are pretty good on its own but I don't think it would warp the meta as badly as it does when Denny shuts down the opponent's ability to deal with the skew. To a large extent, that could be any skew. One of the reasons why I dismissed the idea of not allowing Denny in Ghost Fleet was that she would just break the next theme. Give her 50 Banes, why not. Hell, 15 Deathrippers. I'm sure there is someone who could literally win with that. I'm starting a new thread because I think I know how to solve this. You won't like it, but it could be worse.
|
|
Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605
|
Post by Deller on Jul 30, 2017 20:37:13 GMT
Deller Okay let's break it down. A couple simple questions here: 1) What happens when you don't have the answer to a gear check? For whatever reason, regardless of why. Is there counter play? If so, what is it and is that reliable? And you can apply this to any situation, but right here we're talking about Ghost Fleet. 2) Isn't Incorporeal qualitatively different from other skews like boxes, swarms, armor, or DEF? Yes, recursion can be overcome through sheer brute force, by wiping out the entire unit. That is easier said than done, but it is often doable. Yes, it is wise to bring something other than your caster in every list that can kill a Feralgeist, but that is entirely different from having an entire unit or a battle engine that you simply cannot deal with at all until your opponent attacks with it. Ghost Fleet has other synergies that are pretty good on its own but I don't think it would warp the meta as badly as it does when Denny shuts down the opponent's ability to deal with the skew. To a large extent, that could be any skew. One of the reasons why I dismissed the idea of not allowing Denny in Ghost Fleet was that she would just break the next theme. Give her 50 Banes, why not. Hell, 15 Deathrippers. I'm sure there is someone who could literally win with that. I'm starting a new thread because I think I know how to solve this. You won't like it, but it could be worse. 1) If you don't have an answer to a gear check you lose most of the time unless you can pull off an assassination. This is true of Deneghra1 Ghost Fleet, Karchev/Hark 10 heavies, or any other gear check. Thankfully in the case of Demeghra1 her biggest flaw is the fact she randomly falls over dead to things. Many of my opponents saw much better results against Ghost Fleet when they stopped playing for Attrition when they didn't have the tools, and started playing for assassination. 2) No I don't see how this is all that different. If you don't have magic weapons you do nothing. Against armor if you don't have high power you do nothing. A list can Brute force magic weapons just as easily as it can Brute force high power. Against Ghost Fleet you don't have to though. Most GF lists will have 7-11 Incorporeal models. Every list will have caster spells and the ability to take magic weapons on an objective after list selection on top of any other MW included. The only two Incorporeal models you really need to kill asap are Blackbane himself since when he dies the unit loses recursion, & The Wraith Engine. Yes fighting GF with no magic attacks makes it harder, but it's not harder than trying to take on Karchev when capping out at pow 12.
|
|
|
Post by Gamingdevil on Jul 31, 2017 7:51:44 GMT
an entire unit or a battle engine that you simply cannot deal with at all until your opponent attacks with it. I'm pretty sure this is the power level that they want battle engines to be at. The AFG and Storm Strider, to name a few, are literally unkillable for a lot of lists and they meaningfully contribute during the whole battle. The only thing the Wraith Engine does while being unkillable is stand around and take up board space until he sees a target you really want dead and want to sacrifice 15 points for. The Ghost Raiders are also really bad apart from having Incorporeal. They have victim stats, can't take free strikes if you don't want them to die and are MAT 6, POW 10. They very often miss the things worth hitting rendering them corporeal for no gain and even if they hit something, POW 10 has a pretty good chance at not killing them. I see many people being afraid of their admittedly impressive threat range of 11.5", but honestly whenever they take the alpha, they miss everything and then die. I've resorted to just running them up, walking into back arcs so I can actually hit something and then failing to kill with POW 10 As was said above, kill Blackbane and ignore them, especially if it's only a min unit, they will die eventually.
|
|
|
Post by sgregorbmmd on Jul 31, 2017 11:04:06 GMT
I find this all very comforting and reassuring, like a favorite jacket or a warm mug of hot chocolate. It's good to know that regardless of the curveballs that life throws my way, Haley 2 is still a pain to play against, Mercs and Minions aren't real factions, and if you're planning on competing in a large tournament, you'd better dedicate one list to dealing with Denny 1 in a theme list. No mere edition change can alter these immutable facts.
|
|
kaos
Junior Strategist
Posts: 268
|
Post by kaos on Aug 1, 2017 6:30:41 GMT
Deller Okay let's break it down. A couple simple questions here: 1) What happens when you don't have the answer to a gear check? For whatever reason, regardless of why. Is there counter play? If so, what is it and is that reliable? And you can apply this to any situation, but right here we're talking about Ghost Fleet. 2) Isn't Incorporeal qualitatively different from other skews like boxes, swarms, armor, or DEF? Yes, recursion can be overcome through sheer brute force, by wiping out the entire unit. That is easier said than done, but it is often doable. Yes, it is wise to bring something other than your caster in every list that can kill a Feralgeist, but that is entirely different from having an entire unit or a battle engine that you simply cannot deal with at all until your opponent attacks with it. Ghost Fleet has other synergies that are pretty good on its own but I don't think it would warp the meta as badly as it does when Denny shuts down the opponent's ability to deal with the skew. To a large extent, that could be any skew. One of the reasons why I dismissed the idea of not allowing Denny in Ghost Fleet was that she would just break the next theme. Give her 50 Banes, why not. Hell, 15 Deathrippers. I'm sure there is someone who could literally win with that. I'm starting a new thread because I think I know how to solve this. You won't like it, but it could be worse. 1) If you don't have an answer to a gear check you lose most of the time unless you can pull off an assassination. This is true of Deneghra1 Ghost Fleet, Karchev/Hark 10 heavies, or any other gear check. Thankfully in the case of Demeghra1 her biggest flaw is the fact she randomly falls over dead to things. Many of my opponents saw much better results against Ghost Fleet when they stopped playing for Attrition when they didn't have the tools, and started playing for assassination. 2) No I don't see how this is all that different. If you don't have magic weapons you do nothing. Against armor if you don't have high power you do nothing. A list can Brute force magic weapons just as easily as it can Brute force high power. Against Ghost Fleet you don't have to though. Most GF lists will have 7-11 Incorporeal models. Every list will have caster spells and the ability to take magic weapons on an objective after list selection on top of any other MW included. The only two Incorporeal models you really need to kill asap are Blackbane himself since when he dies the unit loses recursion, & The Wraith Engine. Yes fighting GF with no magic attacks makes it harder, but it's not harder than trying to take on Karchev when capping out at pow 12. Sorry but just to know, which lost caps at pow 12? Everyone brings in some very hard hitter or weaponmaster infantry. I can't think of a single faction who can't deal with high armor targets. Instead not having magical weapons is quite more common, even if is a issue that can be overcome. Eventually I wish designers will design stuff not thinking we are still in mk2 with magical weapons and upkeep removals widely available.
|
|
|
Post by haraldtorvatn on Aug 1, 2017 8:39:15 GMT
Deller Okay let's break it down. A couple simple questions here: 1) What happens when you don't have the answer to a gear check? For whatever reason, regardless of why. Is there counter play? If so, what is it and is that reliable? And you can apply this to any situation, but right here we're talking about Ghost Fleet. 2) Isn't Incorporeal qualitatively different from other skews like boxes, swarms, armor, or DEF? Yes, recursion can be overcome through sheer brute force, by wiping out the entire unit. That is easier said than done, but it is often doable. Yes, it is wise to bring something other than your caster in every list that can kill a Feralgeist, but that is entirely different from having an entire unit or a battle engine that you simply cannot deal with at all until your opponent attacks with it. Ghost Fleet has other synergies that are pretty good on its own but I don't think it would warp the meta as badly as it does when Denny shuts down the opponent's ability to deal with the skew. To a large extent, that could be any skew. One of the reasons why I dismissed the idea of not allowing Denny in Ghost Fleet was that she would just break the next theme. Give her 50 Banes, why not. Hell, 15 Deathrippers. I'm sure there is someone who could literally win with that. I'm starting a new thread because I think I know how to solve this. You won't like it, but it could be worse. 1) If you don't have an answer to a gear check you lose most of the time unless you can pull off an assassination. This is true of Deneghra1 Ghost Fleet, Karchev/Hark 10 heavies, or any other gear check. Thankfully in the case of Demeghra1 her biggest flaw is the fact she randomly falls over dead to things. Many of my opponents saw much better results against Ghost Fleet when they stopped playing for Attrition when they didn't have the tools, and started playing for assassination. 2) No I don't see how this is all that different. If you don't have magic weapons you do nothing. Against armor if you don't have high power you do nothing. A list can Brute force magic weapons just as easily as it can Brute force high power. Against Ghost Fleet you don't have to though. Most GF lists will have 7-11 Incorporeal models. Every list will have caster spells and the ability to take magic weapons on an objective after list selection on top of any other MW included. The only two Incorporeal models you really need to kill asap are Blackbane himself since when he dies the unit loses recursion, & The Wraith Engine. Yes fighting GF with no magic attacks makes it harder, but it's not harder than trying to take on Karchev when capping out at pow 12. Armor (more or less of it) is so common that all lists must bring an answer to it. Karchev may be the one bvringing most, but if you bring stuff which caps out at pow 12, you not only lose to Karchev, you lose to almost every good list. And guess what, if you bring more armor cracking stuff, you not only tech for karchev, you tech for a lot of lists, inn all factions. If instead you spend your points teching against incorporeal and recursions, you spend your points on something which is relevant only against a few lists.
|
|
|
Post by Gamingdevil on Aug 1, 2017 9:21:54 GMT
Armor (more or less of it) is so common that all lists must bring an answer to it. Karchev may be the one bvringing most, but if you bring stuff which caps out at pow 12, you not only lose to Karchev, you lose to almost every good list. And guess what, if you bring more armor cracking stuff, you not only tech for karchev, you tech for a lot of lists, inn all factions. If instead you spend your points teching against incorporeal and recursions, you spend your points on something which is relevant only against a few lists. You could follow your anti-armour reasoning for an anti-infantry list so it can also deal with recursion and Incorporeal though, because your anti-armour list will also need a broad variety of answers like "can I deal with jacks that can't be shot on the way in?" or "can I deal with counter charge?". You start off the list with high volume of attacks, preferably at range and/or infantry control (spells like Freezing Grip, or mass knockdown, covering fire, etc.). Then if you want to do something against models that are hard to remove by conventional means, like the Leader of the Krielstone or of the Revenant Crew, you take some specialised spot removal, preferably at ranged (things like Alexia, Ragman and Shatterstorm come to mind). If you can't get spot RFP then taking it in great volume like Band of Heroes or the Ret theme can also be sufficient, there are options. Failing even that, sheer volume of attacks, or enough control can be enough to chew through a unit or keep them out of the game. Then decide how well you want to be able to handle Incorporeal, Cryx is the only one that can bring it in great numbers, but Ghost Raiders have terrible stats, so if you can live with just being able to take out Blackbane to cripple half their utility, then take the bare minimum; just a spell or a single magical gun, like Harlan can be plenty. If you want to do more, like take out the whole unit ASAP, or kill a Wraith Engine, make sure you can get Magical Weapons on an entire unit or some AoE weapons. I've played against plenty of infantry hate lists that weren't specifically teched to beat (Denny 1) Ghost Fleet and faced an uphill battle, that I often lost. Making a few small adjustments to make the list more viable against a broader range of opponents would have had me on the back foot.
|
|
|
Post by haraldtorvatn on Aug 1, 2017 10:56:23 GMT
I dont really understand what you mean. What I said is that a list which can fight Kharchev well is a list which is able to fight a much larger number of lists than a list which will fight Denegra 1/ghost fleet well. Do you disagree with that?
|
|
Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605
|
Post by Deller on Aug 1, 2017 11:53:13 GMT
1) If you don't have an answer to a gear check you lose most of the time unless you can pull off an assassination. This is true of Deneghra1 Ghost Fleet, Karchev/Hark 10 heavies, or any other gear check. Thankfully in the case of Demeghra1 her biggest flaw is the fact she randomly falls over dead to things. Many of my opponents saw much better results against Ghost Fleet when they stopped playing for Attrition when they didn't have the tools, and started playing for assassination. 2) No I don't see how this is all that different. If you don't have magic weapons you do nothing. Against armor if you don't have high power you do nothing. A list can Brute force magic weapons just as easily as it can Brute force high power. Against Ghost Fleet you don't have to though. Most GF lists will have 7-11 Incorporeal models. Every list will have caster spells and the ability to take magic weapons on an objective after list selection on top of any other MW included. The only two Incorporeal models you really need to kill asap are Blackbane himself since when he dies the unit loses recursion, & The Wraith Engine. Yes fighting GF with no magic attacks makes it harder, but it's not harder than trying to take on Karchev when capping out at pow 12. Armor (more or less of it) is so common that all lists must bring an answer to it. Karchev may be the one bvringing most, but if you bring stuff which caps out at pow 12, you not only lose to Karchev, you lose to almost every good list. And guess what, if you bring more armor cracking stuff, you not only tech for karchev, you tech for a lot of lists, inn all factions. If instead you spend your points teching against incorporeal and recursions, you spend your points on something which is relevant only against a few lists. So I just want to be clear, it's 100% acceptable that High armor skews the game so hard that every list pair needs to included an anti armor drop (just like how in mark2 Cryx skewed the game so everyone needed an infantry drop) or you lose, but when Deneghra requires different answers it's OP? I don't want to play a game where Armor Spam is the only good list option.
|
|
|
Post by haraldtorvatn on Aug 1, 2017 12:36:59 GMT
Armor (more or less of it) is so common that all lists must bring an answer to it. Karchev may be the one bvringing most, but if you bring stuff which caps out at pow 12, you not only lose to Karchev, you lose to almost every good list. And guess what, if you bring more armor cracking stuff, you not only tech for karchev, you tech for a lot of lists, inn all factions. If instead you spend your points teching against incorporeal and recursions, you spend your points on something which is relevant only against a few lists. So I just want to be clear, it's 100% acceptable that High armor skews the game so hard that every list pair needs to included an anti armor drop (just like how in mark2 Cryx skewed the game so everyone needed an infantry drop) or you lose, but when Deneghra requires different answers it's OP? I don't want to play a game where Armor Spam is the only good list option. I dont like skews at all, and cant remeber to have said Kharcev armor skews was 100% aceptable. What I have said is that a Incorporel/recursion skew is less aceptable than armor skew, because Incorporeal/recursion skew requires much more specific answers, which are useful against a significantly smaller part of the factions and lists in the game.
|
|
|
Post by Gamingdevil on Aug 1, 2017 12:42:58 GMT
I dont really understand what you mean. What I said is that a list which can fight Kharchev well is a list which is able to fight a much larger number of lists than a list which will fight Denegra 1/ghost fleet well. Do you disagree with that? Yes, I'm saying that a list that is made to fight infantry spam, with a few tweaks, is a solid drop into Ghost Fleet and those tweaks are also useful in other matchups. The meta has evolved back to needing an answer for infantry as well as armour, where in the beginning you only needed to counter box spam and maybe control.
|
|