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Post by pangurban on Jul 29, 2017 23:34:48 GMT
As an occasional Cryx player I don't disagree entirely, but the faction is built around strong casters period. Casters are supposed to be pivotal in any faction and Cryx has some other things (Dark Shroud on tap etc) to give them an edge, but Cryx casters being slightly over the caster curve in general seems intentional. Despite how some of that may have turned out in Mk III, and despite Denny1 being exceptionally good in comparison to the rest. Cryx had *a lot* of great casters in Mk II, quite a few of which would have gotten played a lot more often if it wasn't for the absolute top being so out of whack. and if that was true of the Cryx caster stable, I wouldn't have any complaints. Unfortunately it's simply not true in MKIII. The units and jacks are all paying a premium for these "strong" casters, but with the exception of Denny1 they're mostly below the curve. -und_ed The point is that Denny1 might be holding the non-casters in Cryx back stat-wise, but that's likely intentional. She's not holding the other casters back in terms of strength though, since for competitive purposes you can only take one caster in a list anyway. If the idea is to fix the lagging Cryx casters, nerfing Denny into oblivion is not really a prerequisite.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jul 29, 2017 23:42:00 GMT
Wait so banes and ghost fllet is "behind the curve"
Wow
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Post by Cryptix on Jul 29, 2017 23:51:05 GMT
To test his theory I decided to give some sample cryx infantry and jacks +2 MAT, RAT, POW, DEF, and Unyielding to simulate the effects of the removal of the withering:
Slayer: SPD 6 STR 12 MAT 9 RAT 7 DEF 15 ARM 19 in melee, P+S 18 with a P+S 24 combostrike.
Seether: SPD 6 STR STR 12 MAT 10 RAT 7 DEF 14 ARM 19 in melee, P+S 19 with free charges
Stalker: SPD 7 STR 9 MAT 9 RAT 6 DEF 17 ARM 15 in melee, P+S 14 with blessed and grievous
Harrower: SPD 6 STR 14 MAT 8 RAT 8 DEF 14 ARM 20 in melee, P+S 18 melee and POW 14 ranged with quick work and wraith shot
Ripjaw: SPD 7 STR 9 MAT 7 RAT 7 DEF 16 ARM 16 in melee, P+S 12 with Crit Armor Piercing and powerful attack
Mechanithrall: SPD 6 STR 9 MAT 7 RAT 6 DEF 14 ARM 14 in melee, P+S 12 with P+S 15 combo strike
Brute Thrall: SPD 6 STR 11 MAT 8 RAT 6 DEF 14 ARM 16 in melee, P+S 16 with P+S 21 combo strike
Satyxis Raider: SPD 7 STR 7 MAT 8 RAT 6 DEF 16 ARM 14 in melee, P+S 11 and 10 with P+S 13 and P+S 12 gang
Revenant Crew of the Atremenous: SPD 6 STR 8 MAT 7 RAT 6 DEF 15 ARM 14 in melee, P+S 11 melee and POW 12 ranged with P+S 13 melee and P+S 14 "ranged" with gang
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Post by Cryptix on Jul 29, 2017 23:59:30 GMT
Wait so banes and ghost fllet is "behind the curve" Wow Banes no, atremnous yes. RAT 4 P+S 10 isn't very scary, even when it ignores defensive tech.
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Post by pangurban on Jul 30, 2017 0:09:45 GMT
Wait so banes and ghost fllet is "behind the curve" Wow Pre-CID Banes? Definitely. Post-CID Banes and Ghost Fleet are solid, but still nothing overly noteworthy - until you factor in Denny1.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jul 30, 2017 0:47:05 GMT
Wait so banes and ghost fllet is "behind the curve" Wow Pre-CID Banes? Definitely. Post-CID Banes and Ghost Fleet are solid, but still nothing overly noteworthy - until you factor in Denny1. That can be said of literally all infantry. Literally ALL.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jul 30, 2017 0:48:12 GMT
Wait so banes and ghost fllet is "behind the curve" Wow Banes no, atremnous yes. RAT 4 P+S 10 isn't very scary, even when it ignores defensive tech. Given that they seem pretty fine in melee with gang and point blank, I think thus comparison is missing the point.
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Post by pangurban on Jul 30, 2017 0:58:42 GMT
Pre-CID Banes? Definitely. Post-CID Banes and Ghost Fleet are solid, but still nothing overly noteworthy - until you factor in Denny1. That can be said of literally all infantry. Literally ALL. If the argument is that there's a Denny1 tax or whatever you want to call it, it seems like the only relevant point to make. No? Unless you're referring to units outside Cryx, in which case quite a few can be pointed out that are hands down better than anything in Cryx, barring caster support.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jul 30, 2017 1:11:50 GMT
That can be said of literally all infantry. Literally ALL. If the argument is that there's a Denny1 tax or whatever you want to call it, it seems like the only relevant point to make. No? Unless you're referring to units outside Cryx, in which case quite a few can be pointed out that are hands down better than anything in Cryx, barring caster support. im saying most infantry is nothing special sans caster support. Your stuff is fine. Not literally better then all infantry in the game, but thats a rediculous bar your setting. Denny is not a tax, you just have rediculously high standards.
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Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605
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Post by Deller on Jul 30, 2017 1:21:10 GMT
Banes no, atremnous yes. RAT 4 P+S 10 isn't very scary, even when it ignores defensive tech. Given that they seem pretty fine in melee with gang and point blank, I think thus comparison is missing the point. Blood Witches do gang melee better & at a lower cost, & Raiders do it better at a similar cost. If you aren't taking advantage of the fact Revenants have guns you're better off playing something else. Without Deneghra1 doing what she does I probably wouldn't bother with Ghost Fleet at all, especially now that in Infernal Machines Necrosurgeons can convert the garbage thralls into Carrions & Biles. With the Thrall & Bane theme changes I probably wouldn't even play Terminus in Ghost Fleet anymore. I can honestly say that if The Withering did get an LoS restriction Deneghra1 would find herself dropped out of my competitive pairing immediately in favor of Skarre1 or Asphyxious1. Deneghra1's control elements are the only reason I even play her, and without them or harshly limiting them I see no reason to play her over casters who do pure offense & assassination better than she does.
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Post by tanarii on Jul 30, 2017 1:21:14 GMT
Ah, this brings back memories...
Granted, memories of why I stopped going to the official pp forums, but you can't have everything.
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Post by pangurban on Jul 30, 2017 1:22:48 GMT
If the argument is that there's a Denny1 tax or whatever you want to call it, it seems like the only relevant point to make. No? Unless you're referring to units outside Cryx, in which case quite a few can be pointed out that are hands down better than anything in Cryx, barring caster support. im saying most infantry is nothing special sans caster support. Your stuff is fine. Not literally better then all infantry in the game, but thats a rediculous bar your setting. Denny is not a tax, you just have rediculously high standards. Cryx has no units on par with Winterguard, Storm Lances or Sentinels. I'm not expecting that either, let alone anything "better than all infantry in the game". I do think it's plausible that PP intended Cryx to lean more on their casters than other factions, though even under that assumption Denny1 is a bit much.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jul 30, 2017 1:26:38 GMT
im saying most infantry is nothing special sans caster support. Your stuff is fine. Not literally better then all infantry in the game, but thats a rediculous bar your setting. Denny is not a tax, you just have rediculously high standards. Cryx has no units on par with Winterguard, Storm Lances or Sentinels. I'm not expecting that either, let alone anything "better than all infantry in the game". I do think it's plausible that PP intended Cryx to lean more on their casters than other factions, though even under that assumption Denny1 is a bit much. Yeah thats when I say your full of it.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jul 30, 2017 1:39:33 GMT
Given that they seem pretty fine in melee with gang and point blank, I think thus comparison is missing the point. Blood Witches do gang melee better & at a lower cost, & Raiders do it better at a similar cost. If you aren't taking advantage of the fact Revenants have guns you're better off playing something else. Without Deneghra1 doing what she does I probably wouldn't bother with Ghost Fleet at all, especially now that in Infernal Machines Necrosurgeons can convert the garbage thralls into Carrions & Biles. With the Thrall & Bane theme changes I probably wouldn't even play Terminus in Ghost Fleet anymore. I can honestly say that if The Withering did get an LoS restriction Deneghra1 would find herself dropped out of my competitive pairing immediately in favor of Skarre1 or Asphyxious1. Deneghra1's control elements are the only reason I even play her, and without them or harshly limiting them I see no reason to play her over casters who do pure offense & assassination better than she does. Yeah, but if you are only assessing a models ranged OR their melee prowess then you are missing out on potential value. Also, I played a game vs ghost fleet recently. Haley 1 with hurricane, 2 Storm striders and 3 chargers vs Denny 1 ghost fleet. I had a lot of offensive power at range to kill a lot of pirates and I had a lot of defensive tech to stop Denny assassinating/debuffing my stuff. I get to turn 6 and I have only *just* started pulling ahead on scenario on recon. In a matchup where I theoretically should be so advantaged and Denny so disadvantaged she still made it into a hell of a fight. This was on recon and I had Arlan and the magical objective (which is actually super meh in this matchup most of the time.) So no, I don't agree that Denny nerfs would make ghost fleet into a non contender, she makes it ridiculous, not fine. Other casters can make it work well, too.
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Post by Cryptix on Jul 30, 2017 2:06:29 GMT
Banes no, atremnous yes. RAT 4 P+S 10 isn't very scary, even when it ignores defensive tech. Given that they seem pretty fine in melee with gang and point blank, I think thus comparison is missing the point. That would be fine if it wasn't for the fact they're 13/12 .
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