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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jul 28, 2017 13:26:05 GMT
Under The Withering you can still make ranged attacks, you can still make magic attacks, you don't need to forfeit movement or action, & you get -4 Mat & Def instead of -2. The only things The Withering has over Blind is -2 Arm, -2 Str, and the fact it can't be shaken. That's kinda the big deal here man. By the way, Degenera also does not permit magic attacks as magic attacks are special attacks. The only thing that stands a chance against that feat is ranged armies, which is another thing that she has in common with Haley2.
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Deller
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Post by Deller on Jul 28, 2017 20:39:29 GMT
Under The Withering you can still make ranged attacks, you can still make magic attacks, you don't need to forfeit movement or action, & you get -4 Mat & Def instead of -2. The only things The Withering has over Blind is -2 Arm, -2 Str, and the fact it can't be shaken. That's kinda the big deal here man. By the way, Degenera also does not permit magic attacks as magic attacks are special attacks. The only thing that stands a chance against that feat is ranged armies, which is another thing that she has in common with Haley2. Blind doesn't permit magic attacks either. It's an extremely powerful effect.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jul 28, 2017 20:55:11 GMT
Blind doesn't permit magic attacks either. It's an extremely powerful effect. Nobody said it isn't. But what blind doesn't do what the withering does, is play into any army equally. It cripples everything, which is what makes it an overall much more deadly and drag and drop threat.
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Deller
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Post by Deller on Jul 28, 2017 23:17:24 GMT
Blind doesn't permit magic attacks either. It's an extremely powerful effect. But what blind doesn't do what the withering does, is play into any army equally. It cripples everything, which is what makes it an overall much more deadly and drag and drop threat. You're right, it doesn't. Blind is much better for an army with low accuracy & high damage output, and not as good for an accurate army that doesn't hit very hard. Thank God they gave Blackout to an accurate faction and not one that hits like a freight train, and there's no way they'd give it to a caster that could stack another "catch all" Debuff like Crippling Grasp or Mortality on top of it. Factions are allowed to have strong things.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jul 28, 2017 23:27:17 GMT
Factions are allowed to have strong things. They are, but your underplaying how powerful it is. Also Im not sure what your point about blackout is. Cryx can be accurate, and also hit like a truck depending on selection. It can also do both at the same time with more expensive units.
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Deller
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Post by Deller on Jul 29, 2017 0:59:15 GMT
Factions are allowed to have strong things. They are, but your underplaying how powerful it is. Also Im not sure what your point about blackout is. Cryx can be accurate, and also hit like a truck depending on selection. It can also do both at the same time with more expensive units. My point is that other powerful Control Range Feats, whether it's The Withering, Landslide, or Temporeal Shift, do not need the LoS limitation that Blackout & Icy Gaze require. The only other feat I would have said should be made to have the LoS restriction attached to it would have been Deneghra2's Web of Shadows had it applied the same way it did in Mark2 because shadow bind does to melee what blind does to ranged.
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zich
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Post by zich on Jul 29, 2017 6:46:55 GMT
They are, but your underplaying how powerful it is. Also Im not sure what your point about blackout is. Cryx can be accurate, and also hit like a truck depending on selection. It can also do both at the same time with more expensive units. My point is that other powerful Control Range Feats, whether it's The Withering, Landslide, or Temporeal Shift, do not need the LoS limitation that Blackout & Icy Gaze require. Well maybe they should have some form of limitation? I doubt it would make Haley2 or Denny1 unplayable.
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Post by dmorktry on Jul 29, 2017 7:36:11 GMT
I'd be interested to know PP's design philosophy for casters. One one end, you should have casters that are easy to play. consistent, and a fair amount of potential, these are the casters that people new to the game should play. After getting familiar with those kind of casters they'll make there way up to the other end where casters are hard to play, inconsistent unless proficient, but tons of potential. The difficulty with this system is every caster on the line still has to be as balanced with one another, the most consistent, easy to play, fair potential caster still needs a fair fight against a proficient opponent playing a high skill required, high potential caster.
I think we can all agree though, that low skill casters that are consistent with high potential have no place on the line or in a greater sense, the game. I don't know enough about Denny or Haley to make this accusation, but it's my experience that quite a few people would.
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Deller
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Post by Deller on Jul 29, 2017 9:49:21 GMT
My point is that other powerful Control Range Feats, whether it's The Withering, Landslide, or Temporeal Shift, do not need the LoS limitation that Blackout & Icy Gaze require. Well maybe they should have some form of limitation? I doubt it would make Haley2 or Denny1 unplayable. Why should they? I doubt it would make them unplayable too, but why do they need limitations? Blackout & Icy Gaze have limitations because without those limitations they would provide close to complete time walks as well as an offensive buff. Temporeal Shift has no offensive component. Under The Withering you get to fully activate with both movement & action, but you're going to be much worse at what you're trying to do. Do you actually think Temporeal Shift & The Withering are too strong or do you simply not like Haley2 & Deneghra1? If they are too strong without limitations, why are the similar styled control/enabler feats of Kreoss1, Barnabas, Gorten, & Axis that people haven't been complaining about acceptable without LoS limitations? Unless something is an actual problem it shouldn't be changed. Just because you can nerf something and have it still be playable doesn't mean you should.
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zich
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Post by zich on Jul 29, 2017 15:00:30 GMT
So what you are saying is that those two casters are perfectly balanced and in no way OP? I'll leave you to it then.
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Post by Azuresun on Jul 29, 2017 15:31:59 GMT
Well maybe they should have some form of limitation? I doubt it would make Haley2 or Denny1 unplayable. Why should they? I doubt it would make them unplayable too, but why do they need limitations? Blackout & Icy Gaze have limitations because without those limitations they would provide close to complete time walks as well as an offensive buff. Temporeal Shift has no offensive component. Under The Withering you get to fully activate with both movement & action, but you're going to be much worse at what you're trying to do. Do you actually think Temporeal Shift & The Withering are too strong or do you simply not like Haley2 & Deneghra1? If they are too strong without limitations, why are the similar styled control/enabler feats of Kreoss1, Barnabas, Gorten, & Axis that people haven't been complaining about acceptable without LoS limitations? Unless something is an actual problem it shouldn't be changed. Just because you can nerf something and have it still be playable doesn't mean you should. For Morgoul & Sorscha, it's a "close to complete" lockdown....unless the opposing army is jack (or to a lesser extent, beast) heavy, in which case it becomes "gain a bonus to attacks, and enemy warjacks lose Power Up next turn". For Kreoss1 & Barnabas, knockdown immunity is fairly common. Gorten has SPD 4 and a 10" control area (and push immunity / positioning so you can't get easily pushed exists), while Axis has a 12" control area, debuffs two stats rather than all of them, and neither of them stop charges any more. For all of those, the thing they have in common is that counterplay is possible. Against Haley2 or Deneghra1, you need a list that can non-negotiably skip a turn without losing.
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Jul 29, 2017 18:03:59 GMT
Haley and Denny are just plain dominant. They are in almost every tourney pairing for their respective factions and they almost always do very well in tournaments despite the fact that everybody and his brother has some plan to deal with them. Not even their factions necessarily, but them specifically.
To the extent that we can make those plans. Some merc players will tell you that they cannot take first in a major tourney unless they dodge Ghost Fleet. I think that's just it. It's not only a matter of power curve. There are a lot of things in this game that are overpowered. The question is how well can you answer it?
And if it were only a matter of internal balance, if you guys played Haley & Denny only because they were better than your other casters, that wouldn't explain their performance against the other factions.
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unded
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Post by unded on Jul 29, 2017 21:55:55 GMT
I'd love to see Denny1 hit with the nerfbat. Not lightly, either, but beaten like a red-headed stepchild.
Everything in Cryx seems like it's a couple of stats below its pointage, all standardised around Denny1. Let her get beaten down and fix my poor faction.
-und_ed
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Post by pangurban on Jul 29, 2017 22:12:58 GMT
I'd love to see Denny1 hit with the nerfbat. Not lightly, either, but beaten like a red-headed stepchild. Everything in Cryx seems like it's a couple of stats below its pointage, all standardised around Denny1. Let her get beaten down and fix my poor faction. -und_ed As an occasional Cryx player I don't disagree entirely, but the faction is built around strong casters period. Casters are supposed to be pivotal in any faction and Cryx has some other things (Dark Shroud on tap etc) to give them an edge, but Cryx casters being slightly over the caster curve in general seems intentional. Despite how some of that may have turned out in Mk III, and despite Denny1 being exceptionally good in comparison to the rest. Cryx had *a lot* of great casters in Mk II, quite a few of which would have gotten played a lot more often if it wasn't for the absolute top being so out of whack.
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unded
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Post by unded on Jul 29, 2017 22:33:41 GMT
I'd love to see Denny1 hit with the nerfbat. Not lightly, either, but beaten like a red-headed stepchild. Everything in Cryx seems like it's a couple of stats below its pointage, all standardised around Denny1. Let her get beaten down and fix my poor faction. -und_ed As an occasional Cryx player I don't disagree entirely, but the faction is built around strong casters period. Casters are supposed to be pivotal in any faction and Cryx has some other things (Dark Shroud on tap etc) to give them an edge, but Cryx casters being slightly over the caster curve in general seems intentional. Despite how some of that may have turned out in Mk III, and despite Denny1 being exceptionally good in comparison to the rest. Cryx had *a lot* of great casters in Mk II, quite a few of which would have gotten played a lot more often if it wasn't for the absolute top being so out of whack. and if that was true of the Cryx caster stable, I wouldn't have any complaints. Unfortunately it's simply not true in MKIII. The units and jacks are all paying a premium for these "strong" casters, but with the exception of Denny1 they're mostly below the curve. -und_ed
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