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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jul 30, 2017 2:19:27 GMT
Given that they seem pretty fine in melee with gang and point blank, I think thus comparison is missing the point. That would be fine if it wasn't for the fact they're 13/12 . 13/12 with no other defensive measures! Not on them, nowhere else in faction. This is, of course, sarcasm.
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Deller
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Post by Deller on Jul 30, 2017 2:25:10 GMT
Blood Witches do gang melee better & at a lower cost, & Raiders do it better at a similar cost. If you aren't taking advantage of the fact Revenants have guns you're better off playing something else. Without Deneghra1 doing what she does I probably wouldn't bother with Ghost Fleet at all, especially now that in Infernal Machines Necrosurgeons can convert the garbage thralls into Carrions & Biles. With the Thrall & Bane theme changes I probably wouldn't even play Terminus in Ghost Fleet anymore. I can honestly say that if The Withering did get an LoS restriction Deneghra1 would find herself dropped out of my competitive pairing immediately in favor of Skarre1 or Asphyxious1. Deneghra1's control elements are the only reason I even play her, and without them or harshly limiting them I see no reason to play her over casters who do pure offense & assassination better than she does. Yeah, but if you are only assessing a models ranged OR their melee prowess then you are missing out on potential value. Also, I played a game vs ghost fleet recently. Haley 1 with hurricane, 2 Storm striders and 3 chargers vs Denny 1 ghost fleet. I had a lot of offensive power at range to kill a lot of pirates and I had a lot of defensive tech to stop Denny assassinating/debuffing my stuff. I get to turn 6 and I have only *just* started pulling ahead on scenario on recon. In a matchup where I theoretically should be so advantaged and Denny so disadvantaged she still made it into a hell of a fight. This was on recon and I had Arlan and the magical objective (which is actually super meh in this matchup most of the time.) So no, I don't agree that Denny nerfs would make ghost fleet into a non contender, she makes it ridiculous, not fine. Other casters can make it work well, too. That list sounds like it has 0 RFP effects and 0 effects that let you take control of Revenant Leader models. I would not call that advantaged into Ghost Fleet at all.
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Post by Cryptix on Jul 30, 2017 2:27:28 GMT
That would be fine if it wasn't for the fact they're 13/12 . 13/12 with no other defensive measures! Not on them, nowhere else in faction. This is, of course, sarcasm. I know that they have recursion. Still not getting them into melee without Denny. Trust me, I've tried. Once they get there though, they can hit pretty hard with parasite yeah.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jul 30, 2017 2:57:04 GMT
Yeah, but if you are only assessing a models ranged OR their melee prowess then you are missing out on potential value. Also, I played a game vs ghost fleet recently. Haley 1 with hurricane, 2 Storm striders and 3 chargers vs Denny 1 ghost fleet. I had a lot of offensive power at range to kill a lot of pirates and I had a lot of defensive tech to stop Denny assassinating/debuffing my stuff. I get to turn 6 and I have only *just* started pulling ahead on scenario on recon. In a matchup where I theoretically should be so advantaged and Denny so disadvantaged she still made it into a hell of a fight. This was on recon and I had Arlan and the magical objective (which is actually super meh in this matchup most of the time.) So no, I don't agree that Denny nerfs would make ghost fleet into a non contender, she makes it ridiculous, not fine. Other casters can make it work well, too. That list sounds like it has 0 RFP effects and 0 effects that let you take control of Revenant Leader models. I would not call that advantaged into Ghost Fleet at all. This faction has almost no viable rfp effects and 0 ways to control leaders. I'm stuck working with what I have. Not all pairings can bring rfp and so I have to focus on killing all the infantry from long range rather than rfping things with the models I don't have.
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Deller
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Post by Deller on Jul 30, 2017 3:52:50 GMT
That list sounds like it has 0 RFP effects and 0 effects that let you take control of Revenant Leader models. I would not call that advantaged into Ghost Fleet at all. This faction has almost no viable rfp effects and 0 ways to control leaders. I'm stuck working with what I have. Not all pairings can bring rfp and so I have to focus on killing all the infantry from long range rather than rfping things with the models I don't have. I agree completely, but I don't see Cryx, Deneghra1, or Ghost Fleet as the problem here. The problem is Cygnars lack of access to an important tool, RFP effects. I'd rather see Factions get access to more useful tools for a problem matchup then see factions lose abilities on their models to help other factions deal with problems. Like 8 months ago I would have loved to see infantry factions (Like Cryx) get better answers to the problem gunlines and maybe Caine2 wouldn't have had to get nerfed. Nerfs suck and should only occur if new tools or model buffs can't solve an issue. The only nerf that occurred in Mark3 that I actually agreed with was Una2. Everything else whether it was Mad Dogs, Wurmwood, or Caine2 could have been fixed by giving answers to the factions that struggled massively with the problem. One of the best things that's going to happen for Cygnars ability to play into the GF matchup is allowing Mercs in theme. Alexia2 is game changing in the matchup, and Ragman's Bone Shaker is great against GF while Death Field is amazing in many other matchups. I'd much rather give people things instead of taking them away.
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Post by macdaddy on Jul 30, 2017 4:19:55 GMT
If you cant accept that fact that Denny 1 is a monster than I don't know what else to say haha. Denny 1 makes Ghost fleet meta bending. Any other caster and its just like any other theme force but holy cow under denny 1 its atrocious I have the same issues with Denny 1 that I do with Haley 2. Can they be beaten? yes. Is it a pain in the but and do you have to tech particularly for the match up also yes...Luckily they both tend to have similar weaknesses (spell denial being the biggest thing) Denny 1 is a little too much (mostly her ball busting feat) Im not crying nerf, I just don't think people appreciate how darn oppressive she can be
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jul 30, 2017 4:20:13 GMT
This faction has almost no viable rfp effects and 0 ways to control leaders. I'm stuck working with what I have. Not all pairings can bring rfp and so I have to focus on killing all the infantry from long range rather than rfping things with the models I don't have. I agree completely, but I don't see Cryx, Deneghra1, or Ghost Fleet as the problem here. The problem is Cygnars lack of access to an important tool, RFP effects. I'd rather see Factions get access to more useful tools for a problem matchup then see factions lose abilities on their models to help other factions deal with problems. Like 8 months ago I would have loved to see infantry factions (Like Cryx) get better answers to the problem gunlines and maybe Caine2 wouldn't have had to get nerfed. Nerfs suck and should only occur if new tools or model buffs can't solve an issue. The only nerf that occurred in Mark3 that I actually agreed with was Una2. Everything else whether it was Mad Dogs, Wurmwood, or Caine2 could have been fixed by giving answers to the factions that struggled massively with the problem. One of the best things that's going to happen for Cygnars ability to play into the GF matchup is allowing Mercs in theme. Alexia2 is game changing in the matchup, and Ragman's Bone Shaker is great against GF while Death Field is amazing in many other matchups. I'd much rather give people things instead of taking them away. Alexia 2 isn't really all that good into the matchup. She can rfp 1 leader if your opponent gives it to you and then she will die to retaliation. Also, if Denny goes first Alexia is very easily taken down by a stalker or 2. Anyway, rfp is a tool that is really nice to have in a lot of matchups, Denny 1 is thr only one where it feels semi required. This feels like a Denny problem more than a cygnar one. Anyway, I'm not going to hope that pp changes the rules to make a matchup better for me, I'm using what my faction already had and creating solutions that way. Haley 1 helped in a way that my control match (stryker 2) didn't. He died turn 2 while camping 4, casting deceleration and in cover. Seems fair that my def 20 arm 18 with 4 focus died with nearly no reprisal opportunity .
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Deller
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Post by Deller on Jul 30, 2017 5:13:46 GMT
I agree completely, but I don't see Cryx, Deneghra1, or Ghost Fleet as the problem here. The problem is Cygnars lack of access to an important tool, RFP effects. I'd rather see Factions get access to more useful tools for a problem matchup then see factions lose abilities on their models to help other factions deal with problems. Like 8 months ago I would have loved to see infantry factions (Like Cryx) get better answers to the problem gunlines and maybe Caine2 wouldn't have had to get nerfed. Nerfs suck and should only occur if new tools or model buffs can't solve an issue. The only nerf that occurred in Mark3 that I actually agreed with was Una2. Everything else whether it was Mad Dogs, Wurmwood, or Caine2 could have been fixed by giving answers to the factions that struggled massively with the problem. One of the best things that's going to happen for Cygnars ability to play into the GF matchup is allowing Mercs in theme. Alexia2 is game changing in the matchup, and Ragman's Bone Shaker is great against GF while Death Field is amazing in many other matchups. I'd much rather give people things instead of taking them away. Alexia 2 isn't really all that good into the matchup. She can rfp 1 leader if your opponent gives it to you and then she will die to retaliation. Also, if Denny goes first Alexia is very easily taken down by a stalker or 2. Anyway, rfp is a tool that is really nice to have in a lot of matchups, Denny 1 is thr only one where it feels semi required. This feels like a Denny problem more than a cygnar one. Anyway, I'm not going to hope that pp changes the rules to make a matchup better for me, I'm using what my faction already had and creating solutions that way. Haley 1 helped in a way that my control match (stryker 2) didn't. He died turn 2 while camping 4, casting deceleration and in cover. Seems fair that my def 20 arm 18 with 4 focus died with nearly no reprisal opportunity . It feels like RFP is only required for Deneghra because Revenant recursion is the only recursion that improved from Mark2, while the rest of the recursion mechanics got thrown in the dumpster. RFP is also required to take down the Goreshade2 IM Brute Thrall spam list that's actually really good, but nobody plays outside of vassal because nobody wants to spend the $ on that many Brutes. I would love it if Morvahnna2 and Enigma Foundrys became playable again. I expect that allowing Mercs in themes could bring back High Reclaimer in a big way if he can bring Idrians in the Exemplar theme. I want more things that exist like Deneghra1 Ghost Fleet that attack the meta on a different axis and require different tools & strategies to beat. More strategic diversity creates more interesting and complex gameplay, as opposed to the start of Mark3 where all people did was bring High Armor & Box spam. Seeing how two different strategies clash is interesting. I find it boring when everyone's basically doing the same thing and it's just a matter of who does it better.
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Post by Big Fat Troll on Jul 30, 2017 5:41:12 GMT
Should recursion even be this big a deal? Let alone something you have to gear check for? I could ask the same about incorporeal.
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Post by pangurban on Jul 30, 2017 6:10:33 GMT
Should recursion even be this big a deal? Let alone something you have to gear check for? I could ask the same about incorporeal. How many different things can we accept as "a big deal"? And who gets to decide which ones?
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Deller
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Post by Deller on Jul 30, 2017 7:10:10 GMT
Should recursion even be this big a deal? Let alone something you have to gear check for? I could ask the same about incorporeal. Should Khador's High Armor Box Spam be a big deal? Should Ret & Cygnar's true sight gunlines be a big deal? Should Skorne's high armor infantry Spam be a big deal? Legion's High defense beast Spam? Mercenaries' Gun Bunny Spam? Every single faction (I'm excluding Grymkin as I haven't seen them on the table post CID) has a "gear check" it can bring to the table. Many of these require different tools. What makes one faction's gear checks acceptable while another's isn't?
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Post by Azuresun on Jul 30, 2017 7:45:45 GMT
I want more things that exist like Deneghra1 Ghost Fleet that attack the meta on a different axis and require different tools & strategies to beat. More strategic diversity creates more interesting and complex gameplay, as opposed to the start of Mark3 where all people did was bring High Armor & Box spam. Seeing how two different strategies clash is interesting. I find it boring when everyone's basically doing the same thing and it's just a matter of who does it better. The problem is that when the skew becomes that extreme and weakness-free, it's not "strategies clash", it's "game is decided at deployment because I didn't bring mass RFP that works on undead, or my faction doesn't HAVE mass RFP that works on undead". And I'll say it again, it's relatively easy to counter-build vs any one list. The question should be "Should every faction be required to counter-build vs this single list in a single faction in order for the game to be merely tough rather than comically one-sided?" If you're going to fall back on "But it's fun!", well yes, it's probably fun to play, much like a Haley2 player is probably having fun when they're moving my pieces around to open up a jank assassination and then feating to get a free chance to do it again. But then we need to ask if it's any fun to play against.
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Post by Azuresun on Jul 30, 2017 8:01:32 GMT
I agree completely, but I don't see Cryx, Deneghra1, or Ghost Fleet as the problem here. The problem is Cygnars lack of access to an important tool, RFP effects. I'd rather see Factions get access to more useful tools for a problem matchup then see factions lose abilities on their models to help other factions deal with problems. Like 8 months ago I would have loved to see infantry factions (Like Cryx) get better answers to the problem gunlines and maybe Caine2 wouldn't have had to get nerfed. Nerfs suck and should only occur if new tools or model buffs can't solve an issue. The only nerf that occurred in Mark3 that I actually agreed with was Una2. Everything else whether it was Mad Dogs, Wurmwood, or Caine2 could have been fixed by giving answers to the factions that struggled massively with the problem. Urgh, NO. I remember what late Mk2 was like, and how to play in a tournament and not rely on dodges, you had to pass the gear checks for Lylyth2, Skarre2 Banespam, pre-nerf Haley2, Bradigus, Runes of War, Ossrum's Earthbreaker, the Meat Mountain, Body & Soul, Asphyxious2, Fist of Halaak, Will of the Nine Voices, Harbinger, Axis' theme, Vayl2, and probably more I'm forgetting. None of those skews were invulnerable. They could all be countered. You....just had to wedge the answers for all those skews into two lists and hope you won all the cases of list chicken. Having tools to make a particular matchup easier is good. Being required to have specific tools to stand a ghost of a chance in a matchup is bad.
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Deller
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Post by Deller on Jul 30, 2017 8:44:33 GMT
Urgh, NO. I remember what late Mk2 was like, and how to play in a tournament and not rely on dodges, you had to pass the gear checks for Lylyth2, Skarre2 Banespam, pre-nerf Haley2, Bradigus, Runes of War, Ossrum's Earthbreaker, the Meat Mountain, Body & Soul, Asphyxious2, Fist of Halaak, Will of the Nine Voices, Harbinger, Axis' theme, Vayl2, and probably more I'm forgetting. None of those skews were invulnerable. They could all be countered. You....just had to wedge the answers for all those skews into two lists and hope you won all the cases of list chicken. Having tools to make a particular matchup easier is good. Being required to have specific tools to stand a ghost of a chance in a matchup is bad. I've been required to have specific tools to stand a ghost of a chance against Karchev 10 heavies since the WTC showcased the list's power. This hasn't gone away at all in Mark3, the boogymen only changed faces. Instead of being Skarre1, Haley2, Deneghra2, Lylyth2, Harby, Asphyxious2, Bradigus, Fist, Runes, Meat Mountain the gear checks are Deneghra1, Haley2, Skarre1, Karchev/Harkevich, Vlad1, Caine3, Fyanna2, Ossrum, Baldur2 and Amon. Also what are these "weakness free" lists you're referring to, because I haven't seen one of those since Asphyxious2 was deservedly taken out back and bludgeoned with a nerf bat over and over. You don't need Band of Heroes level mass RFP to deal with Ghost Fleet. What you need is a way to shut down field promotion on 1-2 Revenant units. This can be through caster spells like Hellfire, Hellmouth, Crevasse, Shatter Storm, Silence of Death, or Explosivo. This could be through solos like Ragman, Alexia2, or Hutchuk, units like Dread Rots or Hellmouths, or a Battle Engine like the Sacral Vault.
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princeraven
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Post by princeraven on Jul 30, 2017 9:28:24 GMT
Hellmouths (the unit) are not going to be able to shut down field promotion unless your opponent deliberately walks the leader of the Revenant into melee with the Maw. The best Legion can do outside of a Sacral Vault* against Ghost Fleet is bring Zuriel with Saeryn 1 or play Bethayne and try to channel Hellfire/Disintegrate into the leaders. The problem with this is both casters are just a bit rubbish and building them specifically to beat Ghost Fleet means you need your other list to handle every other gear check in the meta.
* And I loathe the idea of having to buy and transport an entire battle engine just to stand a chance against one specific theme list, especially when said battle engine isn't even a faction model.
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