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Post by Cryptix on Jun 30, 2017 12:27:29 GMT
Even though I don't agree with you about the Cyclone (I own 2), what would you rather do - fix the Reliant and Cyclone or nerf the Defender? The Juggernaut is pretty much perfect where he is. The Devestators and Bersekers are overcosted and lack a meaningful niche. Like the Devestator hits less hard than a cheaper option while bringing not that much utility over a more expensive one. The Berserker hits about as hard as a Juggernaut unless you start pumping it full of focus and while it brings utility it doesn't bring the damage output. Like, the middle section of Jack points is hard to make meaningful but its possible. See where we're coming from?
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Post by RamshackleJones on Jun 30, 2017 12:34:28 GMT
...Jesus Christ. I take it back, I'm not interested in seeing that errata.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jun 30, 2017 12:37:49 GMT
The Juggernaut is pretty much perfect where he is. The Devestators and Bersekers are overcosted and lack a meaningful niche. Like the Devestator hits less hard than a cheaper option while bringing not that much utility over a more expensive one. The Berserker hits about as hard as a Juggernaut unless you start pumping it full of focus and while it brings utility it doesn't bring the damage output. Like, the middle section of Jack points is hard to make meaningful but its possible. See where we're coming from? ...why are you addressing this at me? I've only had a problem with the marauder so far. I've never said that other Khador jacks can't get buffed at all. Jesus, don't pick for a fight where it isn't needed.
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Post by Cryptix on Jun 30, 2017 12:40:37 GMT
I was trying to show how things always look greener on the other side when every faction has internal balance problems. It's less noticable in Khador because we have so many good pieces, but anything with a ranged weapon is overcosted until Harkevich has Mobility removed and Karchev loses Countercharge because they just limit our faction. Marauders do need to be nerfed though - Siege Weapon gets changed back to Siege Engine (+D6 damage vs Structures) and PC 11.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 30, 2017 12:57:16 GMT
I love the argument "my caster has a speed buff but has better things to do" or "oh it costs 1/3 their focus to do that".
Can you honestly tell me you look at the board, see a perfect alpha strike opportunity 1" outside of threat and decide, "nope, better not cast boundless charge. It costs 2 focus or upkept for 1, that's absurd" I mean I understand you have to dedicate focus off the caster and that eats into the total for the turn. But it's a hard sell to tell me that you can't plan around it. Most Khador casters are about being engaged anyways (very little sit back and sling spells. Zerkova is the only one i can think of and she's the one without a jack speed buff. wonder why...)
I hate the entire concept of "cheap beatsticks" because as it's being discussed; it makes "better" but more costly options look terrible. Typhon, a 24 point character, is pow 17. Juggernaut is Pow 19. Iron clad is Pow 18. So for half the points they have more pow. "But Typhon has 8 attacks", 2 jacks, equal the same points, have higher pow and can reach a higher volume of attacks. "But fury OP" yes, Typhon gets maxed out to 5 fury because he is going to die. The two jacks have twice the hitboxes at equal or greater arm. "Excessive healing OP" which cuts out an attack, thus taking away from the damage capacity.
I'm not trying to make an argument with that ^ I'm saying I myself would take two juggernauts every time because they are flat out more advantageous. I don't want cheap beatsticks. I want expensive, point devouring, melee monsters. If I pay 24 points I want Typhon to walk up to two jacks and get his points back. Without having to get tons of outside bonuses (like Kiss from a 9 point unit, as caster buff, and a free charge. Which is what it takes now)
I want my 12 point heavy to look at your 12 point heavy and say "yeah, I can take that" and vice versa. I DON'T want my 24 point character looking at a 12 point heavy and being scared out of it's skin because 1 - it has a terrible chance to kill it, and 2 - the 12 point jack has a pretty good chance of killing Typhon.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jun 30, 2017 12:58:15 GMT
I'm not getting my point across... DEF/ARM/Boxes are usually the same or very similar across a faction, POW is waaaaaaay better than pathfinder, flare, whatever... thus, the expensive beatsticks are not taken because you can field a lot more cheap ones and they are as good as the expensive ones on their main jobs (Hit and get hit). Helping that you have Power-up and BG wide buffs that get better as you take your BG increases. I see more Ironclads than I see Defenders. Why? The Defender has the same statline, one of the top guns in a heavy, hits at -1 POW but auto-damages warjacks on their cortex... Why is he not taken? Because he costs 4 extra points and is worse at hitting other stuff (-1 POW and no KD attack). With an Ironclad/Hammersmith you get a piece to trade with, with an Defender you get a warjacks you want to keep alive, it's easier to trade favorably with a 12pt piece than with a 16pt one. I use Defenders fairly often, got one in my Haley 2 list at the moment, with Temporal Acceleration you can threaten 23" with 2 x pow 15s with Future Sight, an auto point of damage against a warjacks cortex is great, it does not need to one round warjacks when they are not getting any focus next turn.
How many Haley 2 players do you see running just Ironclads or Hammersmiths? you don't, you see (or I have at least) a real variety, Avengers provide ranged KD and Stationary in melee, Defenders for their amazing gun, Centurions for obnoxious board control, Stormclads for threat ranges, Alasdair Johnstone won the Welsh Masters with a frickin Reliant in his list!
Yes this game can sometimes boil down to 'I am going to crush you with the maths of my 350+ box mad dog list', but that is not the norm most of the time people (even Khador players) bring a variety of jacks, rather than just spamming the most basic beat stick, because they offer utility that is worth their points.
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Post by pangurban on Jun 30, 2017 12:59:19 GMT
Its more of a problem with the basic heavies. They are all too cheap for a heavy like seriously. 10 point crusader makes it so people want to spam them too easily. The minimum for any basic heavy should be 12 points and we'll work from there. Make more melee infantry moderately effective again and suddenly spamming cheap melee heavies becomes an entirely different proposition. Point costs are determined as much by other models' cards as by their own. There are a few models/rules in the game that arguably need an erratum, but those won't be fixed properly by changing point costs. Cost is a fairly imprecise balancing tool: the game changes around the model, yet its cost stays the same? Point costs are either good enough or bad, they're never perfect - or rather, they can never stay perfect forever. The true basis for balance is a model's rules and the game's constraints.
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Post by Cryptix on Jun 30, 2017 13:12:44 GMT
I've updated my initial post to have a more complete view of everything...just because.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 30, 2017 13:20:07 GMT
I love the argument "my caster has a speed buff but has better things to do" or "oh it costs 1/3 their focus to do that". I was on my phone with limited time to type a full argument. Saying "Well Khador has Speed buffs, so their low speed isn't a problem, make them more expensive", is stupid as saying "Well the Legion has speed buffs on top of their speed. Make them more expensive". So good for you. You hate cheap beatsticks. I don't and still, see plenty of use for the more expensive stuff. The ones that don't, nobody would even bother with even if you did make the jugger a bajillion points, armor 3, 7 boxes with power -8 (Heal your opponent with every swing). Sometimes an option is so good that it limits all other options and needs to be nerfed. Sometimes a nerf just makes it a dump. Does this extend to infantry as well? Does all high damage dealing infantry have to be at least point cost 20, before your not afraid to use Typhon? Im sorry that in this game not everything trades into one another binarily.
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Post by Aegis on Jun 30, 2017 13:22:48 GMT
I want my 12 point heavy to look at your 12 point heavy and say "yeah, I can take that" and vice versa. I DON'T want my 24 point character looking at a 12 point heavy and being scared out of it's skin because 1 - it has a terrible chance to kill it, and 2 - the 12 point jack has a pretty good chance of killing Typhon. Problem is, that your 12 point heavy doesn't do just that. If your 12 point heavy would be equal on fighting power to my 12 point one, than my had to: 1) Work without draining resurces from my caster 2) Provide an extra spell (even a minor one) to my caster and/or be able to be used to buff other models 3) Being able to take big hits from my caster. 4) Be able to decide how much resurces spend on the moment and not at the beginning of the turn If a Jack will be able to do that, than it would be fair for it to fight on equal terms with a beast of the same price, but at that point we could just play chess since all the models will be equal. With that I don't mean that some beast couldn't see some buffs (or discounts) and some jacks couldn't be made more expensive, but that should be done on a model by model basis, and in general the notion that "A beast should be as strong at fighting than a same price jack" continues to be wrong (since beast provide other things, and the fact alone that you can potentially make a turn where all your beasts use all their fury requires them to not be as spammable as jacks).
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 30, 2017 13:33:40 GMT
I love the argument "my caster has a speed buff but has better things to do" or "oh it costs 1/3 their focus to do that". I was on my phone with limited time to type a full argument. Saying "Well Khador has Speed buffs, so their low speed isn't a problem, make them more expensive", is stupid as saying "Well the Legion has speed buffs on top of their speed. Make them more expensive". So good for you. You hate cheap beatsticks. I don't and still, see plenty of use for the more expensive stuff. The ones that don't, nobody would even bother with even if you did make the jugger a bajillion points, armor 3, 7 boxes with power -8 (Heal your opponent with every swing). Sometimes an option is so good that it limits all other options and needs to be nerfed. Sometimes a nerf just makes it a dump. Does this extend to infantry as well? Does all high damage dealing infantry have to be at least point cost 20, before your not afraid to use Typhon? Im sorry that in this game not everything trades into one another binarily. Legion doesn't have speed buffs Like Khador. we have a single place effect that costs 14 points, and one caster with boundless charge. And we're already 50% more expensive than Khador. Your argument is beyond invalid. I never said anything about making Khador more expensive because they have speed buffs. Stop dragging in other assumptions, Rowdy. I'm not out to get you. Trading unequally is one thing. I don't mind if I have to trade 1.3 to 1, or 1.5 to 1. This is a case of trading 2.75 to 1. (Typhon + BFS) THAT is stupid and I see it as unreasonable. If suddenly you had to throw 3 juggernauts at ironclad, just to have a moderate chance to kill it. You would be all up in arms about it too. I said nothing about infantry, it has it's own set of weaknesses and was not part of the conversation. But YES I do still take my 12 weapon masters @ 21points instead of Typhon because they are better. Again I NEVER said a single word about changing point costs! I only mentioned a disparity that I am faced with every single time I try to put a list on the table.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 30, 2017 13:42:29 GMT
I want my 12 point heavy to look at your 12 point heavy and say "yeah, I can take that" and vice versa. I DON'T want my 24 point character looking at a 12 point heavy and being scared out of it's skin because 1 - it has a terrible chance to kill it, and 2 - the 12 point jack has a pretty good chance of killing Typhon. Problem is, that your 12 point heavy doesn't do just that. If your 12 point heavy would be equal on fighting power to my 12 point one, than my had to: 1) Work without draining resurces from my caster 2) Provide an extra spell (even a minor one) to my caster and/or be able to be used to buff other models 3) Being able to take big hits from my caster. 4) Be able to decide how much resurces spend on the moment and not at the beginning of the turn If a Jack will be able to do that, than it would be fair for it to fight on equal terms with a beast of the same price, but at that point we could just play chess since all the models will be equal. With that I don't mean that some beast couldn't see some buffs (or discounts) and some jacks couldn't be made more expensive, but that should be done on a model by model basis, and in general the notion that "A beast should be as strong at fighting than a same price jack" continues to be wrong (since beast provide other things, and the fact alone that you can potentially make a turn where all your beasts use all their fury requires them to not be as spammable as jacks). oh look another "make my jack doesn't have fury rules" post. Never saw that coming. again I NEVER said my beast and your jack had to function the EXACT BLOODY SAME. Stop making freaking assumptions and trying to act like beasts are just magically better no matter what's actually on their card or what table experience would actually tell you. If you want the fury mechanic so freaking bad play a hordes faction and learn it's not all sunshine and rainbows. What I want is a reasonable chance, a god forsaken CHANCE to trade a beast into a jack and not have to dedicated 3 times the point cost of the jack, plus all the resources my caster has. that is all. I don't care if the beast has no rules on it's card. I don't care if the jack has every rule in the game on it's card. When it comes down to it, each model should have a reasonable chance to kill the other with similar resource dedication.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 30, 2017 13:46:52 GMT
If a Jack will be able to do that, than it would be fair for it to fight on equal terms with a beast of the same price, but at that point we could just play chess since all the models will be equal. This specifically. You would never agree to that. For that to happen every jack would have lose 2-4 Pow, 2-4 Arm, 10 boxes, and gain 50% in point cost. That would be "fair" and "equal terms" to beast if you gained all the fury mechanic rules. If you're fine with that. Then sure. I'm all for an "equal term".
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 30, 2017 13:50:43 GMT
Legion doesn't have speed buffs Like Khador. we have a single place effect that costs 14 points, and one caster with boundless charge. And we're already 50% more expensive than Khador. Your argument is beyond invalid. Battle Host, Mirage, Persuit, Overrun, Alpha Hunter on top of that. If you want the Typhon to do more damage, say you want it buffed to do more damage. Not that nothing should ever be a threat to it unless it reaches the same points values.
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Post by Aegis on Jun 30, 2017 13:55:31 GMT
oh look another "make my jack doesn't have fury rules" post. Never saw that coming. again I NEVER said my beast and your jack had to function the EXACT BLOODY SAME. Stop making freaking assumptions and trying to act like beasts are just magically better no matter what's actually on their card or what table experience would actually tell you. If you want the fury mechanic so freaking bad play a hordes faction and learn it's not all sunshine and rainbows. What I want is a reasonable chance, a god forsaken CHANCE to trade a beast into a jack and not have to dedicated 3 times the point cost of the jack, plus all the resources my caster has. that is all. I don't care if the beast has no rules on it's card. I don't care if the jack has every rule in the game on it's card. When it comes down to it, each model should have a reasonable chance to kill the other with similar resource dedication. Stay calm. I didn't assumed anything and if you read my post better you'll notice that I'm not suggesting the things you same to have understood (maybe it's also my fault for not expressing well, dunno...). What I say is that it isn't as simple as "same poit models should trade equally". Choir of Menoth doesn't trade fairly with a Trencher Chain Gun, despite having similar costs and being both units, but that doesn't make the Choir worse than the Chain Gun, because fighting isn't the only value a thing can provide. Beasts provide other things other than pure fighting power, and do not have some of the disadvantages of jacks (draining from the caster, having to decide everything at the beginning of the turn). That has to be factored into the point cost. That means that if the combat statistics are equal, the point cost can't be the same. P.S.: As I said on the other topic, I regularily play Circle, so I know how fury works and it's advantage and disadvantages, and my opinion is that things are generally fine as they are. Again, some single beasts could need some help and some single jacks may be a little undercosted, but it's there is no need of a generalized change.
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