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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 30, 2017 0:31:45 GMT
The Marauder and Juggernaut. Are they too good? How could they change?
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Post by Cryptix on Jun 30, 2017 0:33:42 GMT
dogganmIT I WASN'T BEING SERIOUS.
If you really want to do this, my suggestions have been repeated countless times.
Harkevich: Mobility replaced with Guided Fire
Karchev: Battlecharged replaced with Steel Rampage (Cost 3 RNG SELF AOE CTRL DUR Turn, models in battlegroup can charge for free and gain +2" of movement and pathfinder when they do).
Berserker: Either gets -1 PC or Aggressive back
Mad Dog: He's fine.
Rager -1 PC, +1 ARM, let him be a budget in-faction shield guard.
Marauder: +1 PC, Siege Engine goes back to extra D6 vs Structures.
Juggernaut: +1 PC.
Kodiak: Cloud costs a focus.
Destroyer: I have nothing to say about him until Harkevich is fixed.
Devastator: Same cost, Rain of Death isn't an attack, but reduced to POW 16/POW 8.
Drago: +1 DEF and loses Unstable, bond with Vlad goes to reroll attack and damage rolls. +1 PC.
Decimator: -1 PC. Remove beat back for +2 RNG.
Demolisher: Same cost, give him Assault.
Ruin: He's fine.
Spriggan: Either -2 PC or MAT 7 and Grenades drop Targeting Flare for Flare.
Beast 09: Either replace Hyper-Aggressive with Aggressive or -2 PC.
Black Ivan: Bear Claw drops Crit Brutal for Brutal Damage or Dismantle.
MOW Bombadiers: Bombard is RNG 14 High Explosive AOE 4.
MOW Demo Corps: Rapid Strike.
Winter Guard Infantry: Goes to 6/9.
Winter Guard Infantry Officer and Standard: Granted[Reposition] -> Granted Tough.
Winter Guard Rocketeers: Brutal Damage removed, goes to POW 14.
Winter Guard Rifle Corps: Goes to 9/14.
Kossite Woodsman: Gain Backstab.
Assault Kommandos: Gain Quick Work and Gunfighter.
Assault Kommando Flamethrower: Flamethrower goes to SP10.
Black Dragons: Gain Penetrating Strike.
Doom Reaver Swordsman: DEF 14.
Greylord Ternion: -1 PC.
Iron Fang Ulhans: 13/21.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Jun 30, 2017 0:36:10 GMT
dogganmIT I WAS JOKING. If you really want to do this, my suggestions have been repeated countless times. Berserker: Either gets -1 PC or Aggressive back Mad Dog: He's fine. Rager -1 PC, +1 ARM, let him be a budget in-faction shield guard. Marauder: +1 PC, Siege Engine goes back to extra D6 vs Structures. Juggernaut: He's fine. Kodiak: He's fine. Destroyer: I have nothing to say about him until Harkevich is fixed. Devastator: Same cost, Rain of Death isn't an attack, but reduced to POW 16/POW 8. Drago: +1 DEF and loses Unstable, bond with Vlad goes to reroll attack and damage rolls. +1 PC. Decimator: -1 PC. Remove beat back for +2 RNG. Demolisher: Same cost, give him Assault. Ruin: He's fine. Grolar: -1 PC. Spriggan: Either -2 PC or MAT 7 and Grenades drop Targeting Flare for Flare. Torch: He's fine. Beast 09: Either replace Hyper-Aggressive with Aggressive or -2 PC. Behemoth: He's fine. Black Ivan: Bear Claw drops Crit Brutal for Brutal Damage or Dismantle. I don't agree about the juggernaut. With his stat line, he should be 13 points, easily. |
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Post by Cryptix on Jun 30, 2017 0:39:29 GMT
Keep in mind that a lot of the juggernauts shtick is he's basic, but can be buffable to a monster. I am working on a total errata for all factions, including Khadoran warcasters. As a little teaser: Harkevich's Mobility is replaced with Guided Fire and Karchev gets a COST 4 Boundless charge for battlegroup spell.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Jun 30, 2017 0:50:00 GMT
Keep in mind that a lot of the juggernauts shtick is he's basic, but can be buffable to a monster. I am working on a total errata for all factions, including Khadoran warcasters. As a little teaser: Harkevich's Mobility is replaced with Guided Fire and Karchev gets a COST 4 Boundless charge for battlegroup spell. Is there a point to such an errata? I mean, it sounds interesting, but...PP's not exactly going to implement it, and even if their changes are inspired by it, they'll never admit that. And The juggernaut is basic, but his 'basic' statline is significantly better than comparable jacks in other factions - e.g. Ironclad, Hammersmith, etc. He's not incredibly OP, but he SHOULD be 13 points. He's also one of the only 'basic' warjacks that received both a stat boost and a point decrease. Also, the fact that he's in a faction that buffs him extremely well is a reason for him to pay MORE for his stats, rather than less. He'd still see play at 13, he just wouldn't seem exceptionally undercosted. |
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Post by W0lfBane on Jun 30, 2017 1:48:41 GMT
Its more of a problem with the basic heavies. They are all too cheap for a heavy like seriously. 10 point crusader makes it so people want to spam them too easily. The minimum for any basic heavy should be 12 points and we'll work from there.
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Post by chillychinaman on Jun 30, 2017 1:54:40 GMT
Its more of a problem with the basic heavies. They are all too cheap for a heavy like seriously. 10 point crusader makes it so people want to spam them too easily. The minimum for any basic heavy should be 12 points and we'll work from there. As a faithful Menite, are people really spamming Crusaders? I've seen 1 or 2 taken as a cheap 2nd wave beater, but I don't think people spam them. Our Premier jack spammer, Amon, tends to favor the Dervish and although it fell from the grace that was Mk2. the Reckoner is still a good all-rounder with good shooting, melee, plus support from flare. |
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Post by W0lfBane on Jun 30, 2017 2:13:28 GMT
Its more of a problem with the basic heavies. They are all too cheap for a heavy like seriously. 10 point crusader makes it so people want to spam them too easily. The minimum for any basic heavy should be 12 points and we'll work from there. As a faithful Menite, are people really spamming Crusaders? I've seen 1 or 2 taken as a cheap 2nd wave beater, but I don't think people spam them. Our Premier jack spammer, Amon, tends to favor the Dervish and although it fell from the grace that was Mk2. the Reckoner is still a good all-rounder with good shooting, melee, plus support from flare. As an equally faithful Menite. I only bring it up cause someone in the Protectorate side of the forums had a thread where he was like all other jacks are almost useless cause the crusader is so cheap. Like what what is Avatar when i can just have 2 crusaders instead. And why a templar when i can spend the points on a 1.5 crusader. And like the argument makes sense. The crusader is so cheap that such logic is kind of tempting. Like we don't tend to spam crusaders cause we like shooting jacks and our mellee lists center around having a couple of efficient character jacks. But i have seen plenty of lists that are like 1 billion crusaders. Anyways back to Khador. Nerf them into the ground pls. |
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Post by chillychinaman on Jun 30, 2017 2:41:45 GMT
With the (holy) Crusader as a basis, I've compared the other warmachine factions' basic melee beatsticks:
*I couldn't find an appropriate comparison for Retribution. Maybe the Griffon would've worked, but it's a light.
Slayer(Cryx)
+1SPD
+1MAT
+2DEF
+2PS(Death Claw vs Open Fist)
+Combo Strike
+Extra attack
-1STR
-2ARM
-2PS(Death Claw vs Inferno Mace)
-4boxes
-Critical Fire
Ironclad(Cygnar)
+1SPD
+1MAT
+2DEF
+Critical Knockdown
+Tremor
-1ARM
-2boxes
-(+)2pts
Juggernaut(Khador)
+1STR
+1MAT
+1ARM
+2boxes
-(+)2pts
Between the two 10-pts jacks, I think there enough pros and cons between the two that, at least in a vacuum they're fairly equal in power. However, when compared to the 12pt jacks of Cygnar and Khador, it seems that those 2pts are buying them quite a few abilities and stat boosts. And forget trying to comparing it to Hordes basic beaters, I've already done it, and at least on paper it doesn't look pretty.
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Post by Cryptix on Jun 30, 2017 2:51:44 GMT
I think you're better off looking at the Hammersmith for a spam jack - Ironclad has one job, and its to knock things down.
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Post by W0lfBane on Jun 30, 2017 2:54:26 GMT
A hammer smith is also 12 points for cygnar.
The cheapest non berserker heavy in khador is the marauder and it's pretty basic
The most basic ret jack would be the manticore while the cheapest would be the sphinx.
Also I'm of the opinion that the slayer is slightly superior to the crusader. Make of this info what you will.
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Post by chillychinaman on Jun 30, 2017 3:09:40 GMT
Hammersmith
+1STR
+1MAT
+1DEF
+3PS(Hammer vs Open Fist)
+Beat Back
+Chain Attack: Smite
+Follow Up
-1PS(Hammer vs Inferon Mace)
-2boxes
-(+)2pts
Marauder
+1MAT
+1ARM
+2PS(Ram Piston vs Open Fist)
+Combo Smite
+Siege Weapon
+2 Boxes
-2PS(Ram Piston vs Inferon Mace)
My opinion still stands
And for fun the Manticore:
+2SPD
+2DEF
+1PS(Saber Fist vs Open Fist)
+Gun+Covering Fire
+Force Generator
-1STR
-1ARM
-3PS(Saber Fist vs Inferno Mace)
-4pts
I don't play Retribution, and I haven't played against Manticores, but on paper I think they look good for their cost.
Overall for me, I'd like to at least MAT be dropped to 6 but I'm probably just jealous and yearning for the days of Mk2. For the record I play Legion and Protectorate.
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Post by Cryptix on Jun 30, 2017 3:13:45 GMT
All main-line combat jacks should be raised to MAT 7 rather than trying to bring down others...that's how we got the Devastator chassis...
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Post by oncomingstorm on Jun 30, 2017 3:22:36 GMT
All main-line combat jacks should be raised to MAT 7 rather than trying to bring down others...that's how we got the Devastator chassis... I mean, I tend to agree (except possibly in the case of Menoth, they've got good fluff and rules justification for somewhat worse stats) however, doesn't change the fact that some jacks are undercosted relative to each other (and particularly to comparable beasts) |
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Post by oncomingstorm on Jun 30, 2017 3:24:27 GMT
also, for the Ret comparison, it would be better to use the Sphinx if we're looking at each factions' cheap beater heavies. You take Manticores for the all-around functionality, in particular their ability to lay down covering fire, not so much for their ability to wreck face in melee.
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