Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Jun 30, 2017 6:18:33 GMT
doesn't change the fact that some jacks are undercosted relative to each other (and particularly to comparable beasts) Point cost don't work cross faction or even in a vacuum, foolish to even try. Also, seriously, you guys had one year to figure out the Juggy, wtf is going on when people think "huh, this piece is challenging and I don't have an answer, clearly the problem is with it and not with me"? Anyway, I'm sure I'm wrong, but I guess it's because I'm not an armchair gamedev.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jun 30, 2017 6:27:07 GMT
doesn't change the fact that some jacks are undercosted relative to each other (and particularly to comparable beasts) Point cost don't work cross faction or even in a vacuum, foolish to even try. Also, seriously, you guys had one year to figure out the Juggy, wtf is going on when people think "huh, this piece is challenging and I don't have an answer, clearly the problem is with it and not with me"? Anyway, I'm sure I'm wrong, but I guess it's because I'm not an armchair gamedev. You've had 2 editions to work out Haley 2, wtf is going on when people think "huh, this piece is challenging and I don't have an answer, clearly the problem is with it and not with me"?
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Post by oncomingstorm on Jun 30, 2017 7:01:18 GMT
doesn't change the fact that some jacks are undercosted relative to each other (and particularly to comparable beasts) Point cost don't work cross faction or even in a vacuum, foolish to even try. Also, seriously, you guys had one year to figure out the Juggy, wtf is going on when people think "huh, this piece is challenging and I don't have an answer, clearly the problem is with it and not with me"? Anyway, I'm sure I'm wrong, but I guess it's because I'm not an armchair gamedev. Yeah, no. Cross-faction point comparisons don't work on a strict one-to-one basis, because every faction has different strengths and different levels of support baked in. Doesn't mean you can't look at a piece as compared to it's analogue in all other factions, and go 'hm. this seems undercosted.' Otherwise, why not drop all Ret lights to 3 points, and all heavies to 6-9? Clearly they cannot be undercosted, as we can't compare them to models from other factions, and they are consistently costed within the faction itself. As to the juggernaut...it's undercosted, it's BEEN undercosted since the release of Mk3. It's not a piece that is intrinsically problematic to deal with on an individual basis, so it's not as splashy as some casters, but the jack is in fact undercosted.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 30, 2017 7:05:54 GMT
Undercosted becauuuuse?
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Ganso
Junior Strategist
Posts: 932
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Post by Ganso on Jun 30, 2017 7:13:47 GMT
You've had 2 editions to work out Haley 2, wtf is going on when people think "huh, this piece is challenging and I don't have an answer, clearly the problem is with it and not with me"? You have me confused with some other Khadoran (though I may know who you may be thinking of), and for the record, I don't recall ever calling for a Haley nerf (even Juris can attest that I have never Female Doged to him or to anyone else of her alleged OP-ness) I may even have defended her in some of those discussions (I rather focus on solutions I'm capable of bringing to the table, than on praying to the PP gods for the skies to brake open to the drought) As to the juggernaut...it's undercosted, it's BEEN undercosted since the release of Mk3. It's not a piece that is intrinsically problematic to deal with on an individual basis, so it's not as splashy as some casters, but the jack is in fact undercosted. That's a big word you're throwing out there. If it is a Fact than it can be proven, if it can't be proven than it's pure opinion/speculation. Until it is proven as fact, we'll have to disagree, and if you do prove it and I still deny it, you may call me names, like: Juggy Apologist, or Point Change Denier, or even flat out delusional.
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princeraven
Junior Strategist
Shredder spam is best spam
Posts: 256
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Post by princeraven on Jun 30, 2017 7:32:02 GMT
The combination of the things on the card, in the context of the faction it is played, are worth more points than you spend to take the model the card is for.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 30, 2017 8:01:56 GMT
The combination of the things on the card, in the context of the faction it is played, are worth more points than you spend to take the model the card is for. Liiike?
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jun 30, 2017 8:06:29 GMT
Quick Cygnar Players to Arms! This is our chance to moan and complain about Khador stuff, like they incessantly do about Cygnar things!
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jun 30, 2017 8:10:07 GMT
The combination of the things on the card, in the context of the faction it is played, are worth more points than you spend to take the model the card is for. Liiike? Khador has an exceptional stable of Warjack buffs on their casters, especially speed buffs, with the only warcasters who don't have a generic speed boost for their warjacks being Zerkova 1,2 and Butcher 1. Khador also has a middling access to damage buffs, especially Signs and Portents Hand of Fate, Redline, Fury and numerous feats. So, given those benefits (which aren't quite as replicable in other factions, especially how ubiquitous speed boosts can be), I feel that certain of Khadors Warjacks should not be the same or lower points than their competitors due to their synergistic advantages. The Juggernaut feels like a 12.5 point model in this edition and I don't particularly mind it. The Marauder does not feel like a 10 point model at all, Its ability to hurt heavies, infantry and colossals with minimal focus investment (especially with 2 Empowers available) is too much. I think it should go up a point to 11 and lose Siege Weapons to make it have some weaknesses. It will still be a very capable piece with the aimable slam still being powerful and useful in a number of Khador lists but it wont edge out its competitors quite so easily and it wont be quite so powerful against Huge Based Models.
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Post by welshhoppo on Jun 30, 2017 8:23:47 GMT
The juggernaut isn't overcosted. I think it is about right.
Its a speed 4 heavy that beats up anything that comes within 8 inches.
Sure we have ways to increase their speed, but Khadoran casters tend to have other things to spend their focus on. And it isn't cheap for us to do it.
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Post by RamshackleJones on Jun 30, 2017 8:27:37 GMT
I am working on a total errata for all factions How complete is it? I'm interested to see it, but if it's still several months out I'm pessimistic about it ever being finished while PP keep updating everything on their own schedule.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jun 30, 2017 8:33:45 GMT
The juggernaut isn't overcosted. I think it is about right. Its a speed 4 heavy that beats up anything that comes within 8 inches. Sure we have ways to increase their speed, but Khadoran casters tend to have other things to spend their focus on. And it isn't cheap for us to do it. With every caster beyond Zerkova 1-2 and Butcher 1 it is a heavy that beats up anything in 10". At least. 11" with Karchev (en masse) and topping out at up to 20" or so with Strakhov. Reducing it to what it can do on its own (a very unrealistic notion in this game) doesn't help the discussion. And most Khadoran speed boosts are actually quite cheap at 2 focus much of the time. I believe the most expensive is Strakhov, switch Superiority (usually upkept, though) and cast Overrun for 5 focus at a ratio of 8/5" per focus. Haley 2, one of the queens of threat extension in the game, gets +6" threat extension for 7 focus, making it 6/7" per focus.
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Post by Aegis on Jun 30, 2017 9:13:16 GMT
They are fine. Having superior base stats for the points is the Khador thing, and it's integrated into the balance of the whole faction.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jun 30, 2017 9:22:37 GMT
They are fine. Having superior base stats for the points is the Khador thing, and it's integrated into the balance of the whole faction. Precisely, just like having e-leaps and lightning generator are a part of ours, good thing the Khador players understand this though and don't repeatedly call for them to be nerfed...
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 30, 2017 9:23:05 GMT
so because khadoran casters have the option to burn 1/3 of their stack to speed up jacks, khadoran jacks should also be weaker.
Got it.
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