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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 30, 2017 14:01:51 GMT
Legion doesn't have speed buffs Like Khador. we have a single place effect that costs 14 points, and one caster with boundless charge. And we're already 50% more expensive than Khador. Your argument is beyond invalid. Battle Host, Mirage, Persuit, Overrun, Alpha Hunter on top of that. If you want the Typhon to do more damage, say you want it buffed to do more damage. Not that nothing should ever be a threat to it unless it reaches the same points values. Again, NEVER said something shouldn't be able threat to Typhon. What I did say is Typhon is terrified of something half his points that he himself cannot kill. Do you read anything word for word or is there a filter that adds in stuff between each sentence? da'fuq is battlehost? Mirage exists on a Gunline caster, totally helps those melee beatsticks... but fine, we'll count that. Pursuit is cute though difficult to make use of on it's caster, I admit I forgot it. Overrun and Alpha hunter are triggered effect thus requiring non-negligible resources. I wasn't going to bring up Strakhov's overrun for the same reason. But fine, We'll throw that in. Do you really want me to list every single speed buff Khador has. Do you really need this to be a pissing contest? Because Khador is still above an beyond. FFS you have a theme that grants advance move. Legion doesn't have that. You have a caster that DOUBLES the speed of your jacks. Where's that for Legion? For the LAST TIME I am not trying to nerf everything WM into the ground. Get off the victim complex. I've not even once mentioned a change, where as other are listing half the bloody faction and what they think needs to be changed.
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Post by Aegis on Jun 30, 2017 14:03:28 GMT
This specifically. You would never agree to that. For that to happen every jack would have lose 2-4 Pow, 2-4 Arm, 10 boxes, and gain 50% in point cost. That would be "fair" and "equal terms" to beast if you gained all the fury mechanic rules. If you're fine with that. Then sure. I'm all for an "equal term". You are exagerating the comparisons a bit (if you take the most efficient jack and you compare it to the less efficient beast in the game maybe, but that are not the averange differences, while also totally forgetting to mention DEF and SPD where beasts often beat jacks). That said, sure, lowering jack stats would be the flip side of buffing beasts stats, but the concept is the same. If you want "total equity" than jacks and beast should have exactly the same stats and rules, but than again we would be playing chess. I'm totally fine with diversity, and fine with the actual state where jacks have better stats than beasts of comparable costs, but depend on the caster and don't bring other advantages beasts have. Again, single models could need changes (and often the Hordes vs Warmachine complainers tend to confront the best jacks around with the worst beasts, not a very fair way to make a point), but the general balance between beasts and jacks is fine imo.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jun 30, 2017 14:05:25 GMT
Maybe once a Theme list comes out that allows the inclusion of Hellmouths, it will be easier for Legion to initiate favourable piece trades. I am loving the Orcales being everywhere at the moment, means I don't have to face the flippin Hellmouth
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 30, 2017 14:06:52 GMT
That means that if the combat statistics are equal, the point cost can't be the same. YES. Exactly this. I agree , I understand, everything. I know that they cannot be the same. I'm looking for something reasonable. If my 15 point beast trades for your 10 point jack. I'd be ecstatic. That's all i want. "Reasonable" I don't need you point cost to go up. I'm not asking for mine to go down. I don't want to flip the game on it's head.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 30, 2017 14:07:29 GMT
Maybe once a Theme list comes out that allows the inclusion of Hellmouths, it will be easier for Legion to initiate favourable piece trades. I am loving the Orcales being everywhere at the moment, means I don't have to face the flippin Hellmouth Hellmouths are busted...
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Post by Aegis on Jun 30, 2017 14:09:11 GMT
That means that if the combat statistics are equal, the point cost can't be the same. YES. Exactly this. I agree , I understand, everything. I know that they cannot be the same. I'm looking for something reasonable. If my 15 point beast trades for your 10 point jack. I'd be ecstatic. That's all i want. "Reasonable" I don't need you point cost to go up. I'm not asking for mine to go down. I don't want to flip the game on it's head. If that is what you want, then most of the time that is what happens. A 15 point beast can usually trade with a jack. If that doesn't happen, is that single 15 point beast that may need a buff, or that single 10 point jack that could need a nerf, but it's not a problem of "beasts vs jacks" but a problem of "a single underpowered model against a single overpowered model".
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 30, 2017 14:13:15 GMT
This specifically. You would never agree to that. For that to happen every jack would have lose 2-4 Pow, 2-4 Arm, 10 boxes, and gain 50% in point cost. That would be "fair" and "equal terms" to beast if you gained all the fury mechanic rules. If you're fine with that. Then sure. I'm all for an "equal term". You are exagerating the comparisons (if you take the most efficient jack and you compare it to the less efficient beast in the game maybe, but that are not the averange differences, while also totally forgetting to mention DEF and SPD where beasts often beat jacks). That said, sure, lowering jack stats would be the flip side of buffing beasts stats, but the concept is the same. If you want "total equity" than jacks and beast should have exactly the same stats and rules, but than again we would be playing chess. I'm totally fine with diversity, and fine with the actual state where jacks have better stats than beasts of comparable costs, but depend on the caster and don't bring other advantages beast have. It's not me that want something. I'm perfectly fine with the actual general balance (both when I play Circle and when I play Cygnar), it's you that want more than what you actually have without wanting to consider what you have that others don't. Again, single models could need changes (and often the Hordes vs Warmachine complainers tend to confront the best jacks around with the worse beasts, not a very fair way to make a point), but the general balance between beasts and jacks is fine imo. and you've lost the intent again. I did not ask for something without considering the options. I play Khador, Cryx, Legion, Circle, and Minnions. I know what I have as a legion player. I know what I have as a Khador player. I'm not trying to strip things from one or buff the other with no knowledge. I'm not asking for total equity. I'm reall asking to be within 30-50% that point. instead of 300% I also compared Typhon to a Juggernaut. I can't get more "best vs. best"... Should I compare Behemoth to Typhon. Cuz I've got plenty of ammo there as well.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 30, 2017 14:16:15 GMT
YES. Exactly this. I agree , I understand, everything. I know that they cannot be the same. I'm looking for something reasonable. If my 15 point beast trades for your 10 point jack. I'd be ecstatic. That's all i want. "Reasonable" I don't need you point cost to go up. I'm not asking for mine to go down. I don't want to flip the game on it's head. If that is what you want, then most of the time that is what happens. A 15 point beast can usually trade with a jack. If that doesn't happen, is that single 15 point beast that may need a buff, or that single 10 point jack that could need a nerf, but it's not a problem of "beasts vs jacks" but a problem of "a single underpowered model against a single overpowered model". Again, I agree. I have no 15 point beast to even make that comparison with. I have a 12 point or an 18 point option for melee. (I guess I should have started with that.) Yet neither of them are capable of dealing with the 10 point jack. That's where I'm coming from...
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Post by Aegis on Jun 30, 2017 14:20:16 GMT
and you've lost the intent again. I did not ask for something without considering the options. I play Khador, Cryx, Legion, Circle, and Minnions. I know what I have as a legion player. I know what I have as a Khador player. I'm not trying to strip things from one or buff the other with no knowledge. I'm not asking for total equity. I'm reall asking to be within 30-50% that point. instead of 300% I also compared Typhon to a Juggernaut. I can't get more "best vs. best"... Should I compare Behemoth to Typhon. Cuz I've got plenty of ammo there as well. You are comparing a super-efficient jack with a super-premium-cost elite beast, so the comparison is quite difficult (Rowdy or Avatar doesn't trade equally with Juggernaughts too, as an example, but it's not a problem of Rowdy. There are things made to be cheap and efficient and things made to be expensive but with extra goodies attached). Maybe Typhon costs too much for what it does, and Juggernaught is for sure one of the most cost-efficient jacks in the game, but again those are single models problems, so I think that are things that should be discussed into CID when their turn comes out more than be used to make comparisons between Hordes and Warmachine.
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Post by Aegis on Jun 30, 2017 14:23:15 GMT
Again, I agree. I have no 15 point beast to even make that comparison with. I have a 12 point or an 18 point option for melee. (I guess I should have started with that.) Yet neither of them are capable of dealing with the 10 point jack. That's where I'm coming from... Has that 10 point jack a name, or they can't deal with any 10 point jack? (Can they deal with a Crusader, as an example?) If the problem is the single 10 point jack, maybe that is the problem. If instead you have 18 point melee beasts (because if they are ranged the comparison gets harder) that can't deal with any 10 point jack than those beast could need a buff or recost.
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Post by jisidro on Jun 30, 2017 14:23:40 GMT
You guys should go to the other thread about cheap beatsticks, FA U and why should cheap beatsticks be cheap and low in quality instead of cheap and high in quality.
I get the feeling CID will be single faction/theme more than an open discussion... This means stuff will tend to be compared within faction.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jun 30, 2017 14:40:18 GMT
You guys should go to the other thread about cheap beatsticks, FA U and why should cheap beatsticks be cheap and low in quality instead of cheap and high in quality. I get the feeling CID will be single faction/theme more than an open discussion... This means stuff will tend to be compared within faction. Cheap beat sticks are only high quality in a single regard...being cheap beatsticks, by spamming them it is often just a case of 'winning harder', and you are left unable to counter things that a more diverse range of jacks would have been able to answer. an example would be a Khador jack list going up against a Caine 1 Sons of the Tempest list, double Gun Mages, two marshalled Cyclones, Hurricaine maybe. That Tempest list would wipe the floor with a list that had 10 Marauders and nothing else, not a single jack would ever reach melee, and you have no guns whatsoever to retaliate. Now lets say you have more of a variety of jacks, couple of devastators, couple of Kodiaks, maybe a Destroyer. you can now create a cloud wall to protect the jacks behind from Thunderbolts, use the Sturdy Devastators as anchors at the back to stop things being pushed back, you have some AOEs to whittle down the gun mages, you now have a game.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 30, 2017 14:47:09 GMT
Again, I agree. I have no 15 point beast to even make that comparison with. I have a 12 point or an 18 point option for melee. (I guess I should have started with that.) Yet neither of them are capable of dealing with the 10 point jack. That's where I'm coming from... Has that 10 point jack a name, or they can't deal with any 10 point jack? (Can they deal with a Crusader, as an example?) If the problem is the single 10 point jack, maybe that is the problem. If instead you have 18 point melee beasts (because if they are ranged the comparison gets harder) that can't deal with any 10 point jack than those beast could need a buff or recost. The Neraph is our "cheap beat stick". Pow 13, and Pow 15, fury 3. auto hit mechanic. Manticore 14pts - average damage is 17. breaks the force field and 7 to grid. Crusader 10pts - 13 points but at least it's all to boxes. Marauder 10pts - 8... Slayer 10pts - best case of the bunch. average is 23. Scythen 18 points. 2 Pow 17, 1 pow 15, furry 4. Manticore - 40 damage. exactly dead. Good trade 1.3-1. If every single attack hits. Mat 6 of Def 12. Crusader - 33. dead by 1 to spare. 1.8-1 trade. Marauder - 26. 8 boxes left. Slayer - Dead by a large margin if every attack hits. Mat 6 on Def 13.
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Post by W0lfBane on Jun 30, 2017 14:50:06 GMT
You guys should go to the other thread about cheap beatsticks, FA U and why should cheap beatsticks be cheap and low in quality instead of cheap and high in quality. I get the feeling CID will be single faction/theme more than an open discussion... This means stuff will tend to be compared within faction. Cheap beat sticks are only high quality in a single regard...being cheap beatsticks, by spamming them it is often just a case of 'winning harder', and you are left unable to counter things that a more diverse range of jacks would have been able to answer. an example would be a Khador jack list going up against a Caine 1 Sons of the Tempest list, double Gun Mages, two marshalled Cyclones, Hurricaine maybe. That Tempest list would wipe the floor with a list that had 10 Marauders and nothing else, not a single jack would ever reach melee, and you have no guns whatsoever to retaliate. Now lets say you have more of a variety of jacks, couple of devastators, couple of Kodiaks, maybe a Destroyer. you can now create a cloud wall to protect the jacks behind from Thunderbolts, use the Sturdy Devastators as anchors at the back to stop things being pushed back, you have some AOEs to whittle down the gun mages, you now have a game. What stops you from just moving your jacks in triangles and having your back jacks hide behind 2 base to base jacks and stopping them from being pushed? Like you're blocking line of sight to your back jacks and stopping your front jacks from being moved. You can do that with 10 marauders. And have an extra marauder to be the distraction . Like strategy doesn't end at list building
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Post by jisidro on Jun 30, 2017 14:51:01 GMT
You have to include the hit % or it doesn't make sense. Especially because warjacks are by and large MAT 7 and beasts are MAT 6.
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