Ryilan
Guild Master
Fighting heretics with vindaloo curry. Taste my spicy wrath!
Posts: 74
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Post by Ryilan on Jun 30, 2017 9:57:32 GMT
This is a friendly reminder to keep things civil. I have seen a few posts that set a somewhat hostile tone to the conversation. Keep in mind that this thread is being watched by the mods as you post.
Ryilan
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Post by welshhoppo on Jun 30, 2017 10:03:30 GMT
The juggernaut isn't overcosted. I think it is about right. Its a speed 4 heavy that beats up anything that comes within 8 inches. Sure we have ways to increase their speed, but Khadoran casters tend to have other things to spend their focus on. And it isn't cheap for us to do it. With every caster beyond Zerkova 1-2 and Butcher 1 it is a heavy that beats up anything in 10". At least. 11" with Karchev (en masse) and topping out at up to 20" or so with Strakhov. Reducing it to what it can do on its own (a very unrealistic notion in this game) doesn't help the discussion. And most Khadoran speed boosts are actually quite cheap at 2 focus much of the time. I believe the most expensive is Strakhov, switch Superiority (usually upkept, though) and cast Overrun for 5 focus at a ratio of 8/5" per focus. Haley 2, one of the queens of threat extension in the game, gets +6" threat extension for 7 focus, making it 6/7" per focus. 2 focus is cheap. But Boundless charge is found mostly on focus 6 casters. Apart from Vlad and old Witch2. One of them is Butcher2, who might only have 2 focus on him for each turn of the game. As for Strakhov, Overrun and Superiority are very good when coupled with his feat, but overrun still needs another model in his bg to kill something first and that makes it unreliable. As they are both out of activation, its also affected by terrain and walls. Haley can place, she gets around terrain.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jun 30, 2017 10:31:03 GMT
so because khadoran casters have the option to burn 1/3 of their stack to speed up jacks, khadoran jacks should also be weaker. Got it. Actually, If you'll see the numbers I posted Khador casters are in general more efficient at getting more inches per focus investment.
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Post by jisidro on Jun 30, 2017 10:43:22 GMT
I think the basic beaters should hit less than the expensive ones, POW is arguably the most important stat on a heavy and, IMO, makes no sense to have the cheapest beaters as the hardest hitters as well.
Ironclad/Hammersmith should not hit at -1 POW when compared to a Stormclad and cost -6 pts. Juggernaut should not hit harder than any other non-colossal jack. Crusader should not hit as hard as any other protectorate jack.
Ret/Cryx are harder to pin down but the basic idea is the same, the expensive hitter need to hit harder. A lot goes into making a warjack viable but POW is the main thing.
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Post by jisidro on Jun 30, 2017 10:47:06 GMT
The juggernaut isn't overcosted. I think it is about right. Its a speed 4 heavy that beats up anything that comes within 8 inches. Sure we have ways to increase their speed, but Khadoran casters tend to have other things to spend their focus on. And it isn't cheap for us to do it.
I know a unicorn that claims to have seen a Khador jack charge SPD+3"+Reach.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jun 30, 2017 10:54:05 GMT
I think the basic beaters should hit less than the expensive ones, POW is arguably the most important stat on a heavy and, IMO, makes no sense to have the cheapest beaters as the hardest hitters as well. Ironclad/Hammersmith should not hit at -1 POW when compared to a Stormclad and cost -6 pts. Juggernaut should not hit harder than any other non-colossal jack. Crusader should not hit as hard as any other protectorate jack. Ret/Cryx are harder to pin down but the basic idea is the same, the expensive hitter need to hit harder. A lot goes into making a warjack viable but POW is the main thing. I don't see why cheap melee only beat-stick jacks should not hit hard, surely that is the whole point of them?
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Post by jisidro on Jun 30, 2017 11:09:29 GMT
I think the basic beaters should hit less than the expensive ones, POW is arguably the most important stat on a heavy and, IMO, makes no sense to have the cheapest beaters as the hardest hitters as well. Ironclad/Hammersmith should not hit at -1 POW when compared to a Stormclad and cost -6 pts. Juggernaut should not hit harder than any other non-colossal jack. Crusader should not hit as hard as any other protectorate jack. Ret/Cryx are harder to pin down but the basic idea is the same, the expensive hitter need to hit harder. A lot goes into making a warjack viable but POW is the main thing. I don't see why cheap melee only beat-stick jacks should not hit hard, surely that is the whole point of them? Because it invalidates the expensive melee beaters. It is of paramount importance that all jacks in a faction usually have the same boxes and similar statline. So the difference between expensive and cheap beatsticks usually doesn't cover DEF/ARM/Boxes/POW in a significant way.
Why use a laser guided hammer with wi-fi when you can use a bicep powered one? I think the game is underevaluating the importance, aka value, of POW on a heavy warjack. It doesn't matter if the expensive ones have all the perks when 2 of the cheap ones can just kill off the expensive one.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 30, 2017 11:14:07 GMT
Because they dont do the same thing?
Pathfinder, additional abilities, a gun, focus efficiency all factor into jack selection.
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Post by welshhoppo on Jun 30, 2017 11:26:35 GMT
How many expensive melee beaters do you see that just beat in melee? In Khador, the expensive ones have things like Native Pathfinder, flares or are character jacks.
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Post by jisidro on Jun 30, 2017 11:44:14 GMT
I'm not getting my point across... DEF/ARM/Boxes are usually the same or very similar across a faction, POW is waaaaaaay better than pathfinder, flare, whatever... thus, the expensive beatsticks are not taken because you can field a lot more cheap ones and they are as good as the expensive ones on their main jobs (Hit and get hit). Helping that you have Power-up and BG wide buffs that get better as you take your BG increases.
I see more Ironclads than I see Defenders. Why? The Defender has the same statline, one of the top guns in a heavy, hits at -1 POW but auto-damages warjacks on their cortex... Why is he not taken? Because he costs 4 extra points and is worse at hitting other stuff (-1 POW and no KD attack).
With an Ironclad/Hammersmith you get a piece to trade with, with an Defender you get a warjacks you want to keep alive, it's easier to trade favorably with a 12pt piece than with a 16pt one.
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Post by smoothcriminal on Jun 30, 2017 11:45:28 GMT
Are they too good? No, spd is a big deal and costs a lot of pts. Spd 5 Juggy would be 14pts, Spd 6 (which casters enable with spells and which people are mostly bothered about) would be 16 pts. But nobody pays pts for caster buffs, unless Cygnar wants to have +3 pts on everything due to Arcane ward.
Should they be changed? Yes, make Berserker chassis great again please.
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Post by welshhoppo on Jun 30, 2017 11:47:34 GMT
I think the main reason you don't see defenders as beating jacks is because they are missing an arm.
And Hunters generally shoot better and they are cheaper.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jun 30, 2017 11:49:18 GMT
In my mind, when you look at heavies the points generally show off reasonably what they should do.
10-12. Inefficient beaters. pow 18-19 with very little utility or lower than that with more utility. In this I actually feel PP has mostly done fine except for a couple like the Marauder.
13-16. This is where utility jacks sit, Jacks with specialised abilities with less hitting power. This is where your traditional gun jacks are usually sitting. This should often be where the Hybrid Jacks (1 melee, 1 ranged) should sit as their melee often isn't good on its own and their ranged is good, but generally cheaper options and more expensive options do it better. This is the area with the largest crap shoot currently. Cygnar has the Defender in here, but the Reliant, the Cyclone both sit useless.
16+. This is the expensive beaters. Jacks who don't hit harder than the 10-12, but should be gaining more specialised utility in order to make their points worth it. so 18 points for a Stormclad is often a tough sell as he hits about as hard as a Hammersmith, but the threat, the gun and a bunch of other little things all really help.
Outside of these curves are jacks who are too good/not good enough. The marauder is more like a 13-16 with his specialised abilities and yet sits at a 10. The Decimator sits too high for what you get.
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Post by Cryptix on Jun 30, 2017 12:01:23 GMT
the Reliant, the Cyclone both sit useless Even though I don't agree with you about the Cyclone (I own 2), what would you rather do - fix the Reliant and Cyclone or nerf the Defender?
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jun 30, 2017 12:19:59 GMT
the Reliant, the Cyclone both sit useless Even though I don't agree with you about the Cyclone (I own 2), what would you rather do - fix the Reliant and Cyclone or nerf the Defender? The defender is pretty much perfect where he is. The Cyclone and Reliant are overcosted and lack a meaningful niche. Like the Reliant hits less hard than a cheaper option while bringing not that much utility over a more expensive one. The Cyclone hits about as hard as a Charger unless you start pumping it full of focus and while it brings utility it doesn't bring the damage output. Like, the middle section of Jack points is hard to make meaningful but its possible.
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