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Post by elladan52 on Jun 14, 2017 15:44:07 GMT
Quite a bit, but forgive me it's difficult to type on my phone. First, farms are rarely associated with unclean and death. In fact just the opposite. Farms are traditionally associated with life and rebirth. It's where the life sustaining food comes from. Look at most of the gods of the harvest. Second it never states outright why God preferred Abels offering over Cains. The story doesn't say Cain was lazy or anything like that. It says he brought from the fruit of the soil an offering to the Lord. There's also the belief he rejected Cain's offering because it wasn't a blood offering, it was merely produce. At no point is Cain described as lazy or anything like that though. Some scholars even believe he was rejected because he thought his offering was too good. He presented it out of pride rather than faith. It wasn't that God preferred Cain. It was that he was against Abel. Fate however prefers the crap out of Haley as evidenced by deus ex Haley. In Genesis, Adam is CURSED to have to work the land. In the time of this story, it's very, very old, farming was not pleasant or considered beautiful. Yes, it later aquired that conotation, but that took a while. And soil can absolutely be associated with being unclean (dirt-y), and death (you get buried in the ground, all things decompose into soil). As I said, farming isn't evil, but symbolically it is linked to a less pleasant life than shepherding. And fine, Cain wasn't necessarily lazy, but being too prideful in your work usually means you could work harder. Humility is important, and Denny lost her fight with Haley because of hubris. Fate isn't necessarily a sentient thing. Call it reality of you want. But Haley was victorious in her sacrifice because she gave the best she could, and that's a real thing. The more you explain the Cain/Abel connection, the less it makes sense. I imagine that on the surface there is some connection that the author sees, but it goes no deeper than "sibling rivalry". For one, Cain being a farmer has nothing to do with the rejection - it's all about his attitude. Reading the whole story it becomes clear. It also does imply that he did not dobas well as his brother. And you are really stretching with the farm->ground->dirty->Deneghra connection. You could just as easily say that Deneghra is the shepherd, leading her "people" to victory. She must protect the sheep-like thralls as much as Haley protects her soldiers. Sure, she is jealous, but she is also the one that actually died. Abel was killed, a decidedly un-Haley move.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 14, 2017 15:53:36 GMT
completely different culture to the story referenced. The Japanese caste system put those who dirtied their hands at the lowest caste. Thus people who worked with dirt, the foul side of animal care, doctors (ironically), their equivalent of morticians, etc...
Not to mean they saw it as "evil". It was still necessary.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 14, 2017 16:15:40 GMT
In Genesis, Adam is CURSED to have to work the land. In the time of this story, it's very, very old, farming was not pleasant or considered beautiful. Yes, it later aquired that conotation, but that took a while. And soil can absolutely be associated with being unclean (dirt-y), and death (you get buried in the ground, all things decompose into soil). As I said, farming isn't evil, but symbolically it is linked to a less pleasant life than shepherding. And fine, Cain wasn't necessarily lazy, but being too prideful in your work usually means you could work harder. Humility is important, and Denny lost her fight with Haley because of hubris. Fate isn't necessarily a sentient thing. Call it reality of you want. But Haley was victorious in her sacrifice because she gave the best she could, and that's a real thing. The more you explain the Cain/Abel connection, the less it makes sense. I imagine that on the surface there is some connection that the author sees, but it goes no deeper than "sibling rivalry". For one, Cain being a farmer has nothing to do with the rejection - it's all about his attitude. Reading the whole story it becomes clear. It also does imply that he did not dobas well as his brother. And you are really stretching with the farm->ground->dirty->Deneghra connection. You could just as easily say that Deneghra is the shepherd, leading her "people" to victory. She must protect the sheep-like thralls as much as Haley protects her soldiers. Sure, she is jealous, but she is also the one that actually died. Abel was killed, a decidedly un-Haley move. Denny doesn't protect her thralls, she uses them as cannon fodder. The Shepherd protects the sheep, not the other way around. And as for Cryx, only a small number of Cryx casters actually fight because they love their country/draconic overlord. Most of them are seeking power for themselves. Cryx is absolutely evil. I don't go for that relativism stuff. They seek to spread suffering and death as much as possible.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 14, 2017 16:26:15 GMT
I'll clarify why fighting for your cointry isn't always righteous.
What matters are the values which the nation stands for. Just because Skorne see no issue with conquest and slavery doesn't make those good things.
Now, y'all can try to pull the moral relativism bit. But, simply put, good is that which seeks to lessen suffering, and evil is that which actively increases it.
If it's any consolation, I think Khador is one of the most good aligned factions. Them along with half of mercenaries, Cygnar, and Trollbloods. But I think it's most obvious that Cygnar is the most good, if only because they fight in defense. Mercs do it for gold, Khador fights for conquest, and the fact that trolls eat people kinda knocks them down a peg.
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Post by elladan52 on Jun 14, 2017 17:12:26 GMT
The more you explain the Cain/Abel connection, the less it makes sense. I imagine that on the surface there is some connection that the author sees, but it goes no deeper than "sibling rivalry". For one, Cain being a farmer has nothing to do with the rejection - it's all about his attitude. Reading the whole story it becomes clear. It also does imply that he did not dobas well as his brother. And you are really stretching with the farm->ground->dirty->Deneghra connection. You could just as easily say that Deneghra is the shepherd, leading her "people" to victory. She must protect the sheep-like thralls as much as Haley protects her soldiers. Sure, she is jealous, but she is also the one that actually died. Abel was killed, a decidedly un-Haley move. Denny doesn't protect her thralls, she uses them as cannon fodder. The Shepherd protects the sheep, not the other way around. And as for Cryx, only a small number of Cryx casters actually fight because they love their country/draconic overlord. Most of them are seeking power for themselves. Cryx is absolutely evil. I don't go for that relativism stuff. They seek to spread suffering and death as much as possible. Sure, but the analogy cuts both ways because of the tenuous connection is my point.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 14, 2017 17:30:28 GMT
Denny doesn't protect her thralls, she uses them as cannon fodder. The Shepherd protects the sheep, not the other way around. And as for Cryx, only a small number of Cryx casters actually fight because they love their country/draconic overlord. Most of them are seeking power for themselves. Cryx is absolutely evil. I don't go for that relativism stuff. They seek to spread suffering and death as much as possible. Sure, but the analogy cuts both ways because of the tenuous connection is my point. I don't think the connection is tenuous. A shepherd throwing sheep at the wolves will not prosper, and a farmer that works diligently and humbly will thrive. Their roles are less important than their actions. The fact that they have different roles is important as a way to differentiate the two. But I'll put it this way, Haley tended to her flock, Denny neglected her field by too readily accepting its success.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 14, 2017 17:47:19 GMT
I don't think the connection is tenuous. A shepherd throwing sheep at the wolves will not prosper, and a farmer that works diligently and humbly will thrive. Their roles are less important than their actions. The fact that they have different roles is important as a way to differentiate the two. But I'll put it this way, Haley tended to her flock, Denny neglected her field by too readily accepting its success. So what your saying is that: Haley is awesome because the things she does are awesome and therefore she deserves trinkets and power. And everybody else isn't awesome because what they're doing isn't awesome so, therefore, no power. I keep mentioning these other heroes (Khadoran or NOT) that had to struggle with way greater things then just loosing their powers, and if they overcame it they at best didn't die. Why don't they get powerups? Why doesn't the literal UNIVERSE bend their way to reward their efforts? Because Haley is an author's pet.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 14, 2017 17:48:36 GMT
I'll clarify why fighting for your cointry isn't always righteous. What matters are the values which the nation stands for. Just because Skorne see no issue with conquest and slavery doesn't make those good things. Now, y'all can try to pull the moral relativism bit. But, simply put, good is that which seeks to lessen suffering, and evil is that which actively increases it. If it's any consolation, I think Khador is one of the most good aligned factions. Them along with half of mercenaries, Cygnar, and Trollbloods. But I think it's most obvious that Cygnar is the most good, if only because they fight in defense. Mercs do it for gold, Khador fights for conquest, and the fact that trolls eat people kinda knocks them down a peg. but that's the problem; good and evil are strictly relative. You can't define good or evil because they are only concepts. Ideals. Not hard determinable facts. If good "lessens suffering" then suicide is "good". Ending the lives of the homeless and starving would then be considered "good" just as giving them shelter and food would be. It is a perspective. It is only held to the highest standard of the one "wielding" it. Haley might be fighting for all she's worth to do "good" but has she stopped every current and foreseeable war? has she never draw blood in a fight? Has she ensured the lively hood of ever single member of allied or enemy armies? To be perfectly good, she must not just protect Her country but every country and every faction. No mater their motives, allegiance, or history. To be good by your definition she must be willing to prevent the suffering of every mortal being in the fiction from suffering. Including her sister. Including the most foul creatures to walk. Does she do that? If not, she is not by definition good. She is evil where she needs to be to further the position of herself and her army/country. She's just as self-interested as Karchev, Madrak, Everblight, and Toruk. I am by no means trying to devalue morals or ethics on right and wrong. But neither term, good or evil, can holistically be defined to the point it can never be misrepresented or construed. Therefore it is relative.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 14, 2017 17:52:52 GMT
I am by no means trying to devalue morals or ethics on right and wrong. But neither term, good or evil, can holistically be defined to the point it can never be misrepresented or construed. Therefore it is relative. I am not a so much moral relativist and I believe that life is in pursuit of an ultimate virtue (Or Truth, Or God, or whatever), but I agree with your sentiment. Haley isn't an ultimate Pacifist. She's not an ultimate healer. She's a Military leader that kills people. Forget Cryx for instance. Menothians and Khadoran soldiers would end up dying just because their THERE. Are they bad people just because their not Cygnar? Or is it morality that unless your, not Cygnar your not allowed to be righteous (Which feeds back into the whole "Cygnar is as dull as rocks" problem)? For killing people that just happen to be wearing red or white, she deserves to be rewarded with godlike powers?
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 14, 2017 18:23:10 GMT
I'll clarify why fighting for your cointry isn't always righteous. What matters are the values which the nation stands for. Just because Skorne see no issue with conquest and slavery doesn't make those good things. Now, y'all can try to pull the moral relativism bit. But, simply put, good is that which seeks to lessen suffering, and evil is that which actively increases it. If it's any consolation, I think Khador is one of the most good aligned factions. Them along with half of mercenaries, Cygnar, and Trollbloods. But I think it's most obvious that Cygnar is the most good, if only because they fight in defense. Mercs do it for gold, Khador fights for conquest, and the fact that trolls eat people kinda knocks them down a peg. but that's the problem; good and evil are strictly relative. You can't define good or evil because they are only concepts. Ideals. Not hard determinable facts. If good "lessens suffering" then suicide is "good". Ending the lives of the homeless and starving would then be considered "good" just as giving them shelter and food would be. It is a perspective. It is only held to the highest standard of the one "wielding" it. Haley might be fighting for all she's worth to do "good" but has she stopped every current and foreseeable war? has she never draw blood in a fight? Has she ensured the lively hood of ever single member of allied or enemy armies? To be perfectly good, she must not just protect Her country but every country and every faction. No mater their motives, allegiance, or history. To be good by your definition she must be willing to prevent the suffering of every mortal being in the fiction from suffering. Including her sister. Including the most foul creatures to walk. Does she do that? If not, she is not by definition good. She is evil where she needs to be to further the position of herself and her army/country. She's just as self-interested as Karchev, Madrak, Everblight, and Toruk. I am by no means trying to devalue morals or ethics on right and wrong. But neither term, good or evil, can holistically be defined to the point it can never be misrepresented or construed. Therefore it is relative. Cool. I'll try my best to explain. The ending of a life ends the suffering of that life. Fair. Does it end all suffering? No. Logical extreme: to end all suffering, all life must end. (I am not saying that's your claim. Calm down.) To be true, that must mean that existence can never do more good than evil. Now, that's a strong idea that has thrived in accademia for a while (~100 years). The idea will claim that existence is so horrible that it must be destroyed. Now, one can claim that this idea is rooted in logic and reason, but it is also based in resentfulness towards existence itself. But here's a more elaborate way to put good and evil. To do good, one must actively try to make existence have less suffering, to make it better. And to do good, one must actively try to increase the suffering in existence while destroying it. Haley is a warrior, she kills. But never more than necessary, never out of malice. It is in defense of the civillians who cannot protect themselves. I claim Cygnar is good because they are not actively trying to increase pain and suffering. If Khador conquered Cygnar, the ruling class would be killed, the civillians enslaved, the rebels executed. If the Protectorate conquered Cygnar, the ruling class would be executed, the populace would be forcibly converted, or executed. If Cryx conquered Cygnar, all of its people would become undead thralls, and souls to fuel the nightmare island. If Ios conquered Cygnar, all of the magic users would be executed, and the populace might just be killed (or at least put on a strict birthing program so that all future magic users are killed). If the Cephalyx conquered Cygnar, everyone would be tortured and converted into mindless drudges/monstrosities whos lives are only pain. If Skorne conquered Cygnar, the ruling class AND the populus would be enslaved and tortured. If Circle conquered Cygnar, they'd also likely be powerful enough to summon the devourer wurm and everybody would die. If the Trollbloods conquered Cygnar... idk. They wouldn't be very nice about it. If Legion conquered Cygnar, we'd be stirred into pots and made into blighted monsters. Convergence will kill people who get in their way (which is different from killing people trying to kill you). And minions wouldn't be very nice either. Rhul gets a pass. They're pretty good. The only death and destruction Cygnar would unleash against ANY of these forces would be the minimum required to secure Cygnar (and her people's) safety. I can sum up "who's the most non-evil faction?" With a singular question: Who would you most prefer to be captured by on the battlefield?
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 14, 2017 18:36:17 GMT
I can sum up "who's the most non-evil faction?" With a singular question: Who would you most prefer to be captured by on the battlefield? So now Cygnar is the pinnacle of morality. Aight. Like I said, Haley Represents Cygnar Perfectly. Everybody has some kind of both moral struggle but also some kind of virtue (Outside of the pure bad guys). Cygnar is chosen to be the goody good because the authors said so. Also, Reminder that only a few crazy people in Circle want everybody to die. Most want to stop the Iron Kingdoms FROM summoning the devourer wurm. Also a reminder that Cygnar Canonically (Not even a debatable area) sends mercenary groups into Khador to Firetruck with their villages. Also a basic simple reminder that no War ever has not harmed civilians. So Innocent Khadorans have died from Cygnarian attacks just through probability alone. Yes, Cygnar is a painfully perfect and "Nice Nice" kingdom that probably genetically engineered puppies, but you just keep digging a deeper and deeper hole. Haleys Fault as an unbearable authors pet shines on how the Kingdom of Cygnar as a whole is an unbearable Teachers Pet. So because Haley was born on the right side, deserves god powers.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 14, 2017 18:37:28 GMT
but that's the problem; good and evil are strictly relative. You can't define good or evil because they are only concepts. Ideals. Not hard determinable facts. If good "lessens suffering" then suicide is "good". Ending the lives of the homeless and starving would then be considered "good" just as giving them shelter and food would be. It is a perspective. It is only held to the highest standard of the one "wielding" it. Haley might be fighting for all she's worth to do "good" but has she stopped every current and foreseeable war? has she never draw blood in a fight? Has she ensured the lively hood of ever single member of allied or enemy armies? To be perfectly good, she must not just protect Her country but every country and every faction. No mater their motives, allegiance, or history. To be good by your definition she must be willing to prevent the suffering of every mortal being in the fiction from suffering. Including her sister. Including the most foul creatures to walk. Does she do that? If not, she is not by definition good. She is evil where she needs to be to further the position of herself and her army/country. She's just as self-interested as Karchev, Madrak, Everblight, and Toruk. I am by no means trying to devalue morals or ethics on right and wrong. But neither term, good or evil, can holistically be defined to the point it can never be misrepresented or construed. Therefore it is relative. Cool. I'll try my best to explain. [huge snip] Rhul gets a pass. They're pretty good. The only death and destruction Cygnar would unleash against ANY of these forces would be the minimum required to secure Cygnar (and her people's) safety. I can sum up "who's the most non-evil faction?" With a singular question: Who would you most prefer to be captured by on the battlefield? Your faction bias is showing. You play both Dwarves and Cygnar. It seems pretty convenient that Dwarves "get a pass" As for everything else. I don't deny there is evil in other factions. But to say that Cygnar would only be evil to the extent it is necessary to obtain and maintain total power. Is absolute moral dishonesty. "I would never kill anyone. I'm a good person. but Bob is a terrible person, he needs to die." Does NOT make you a good person. If I had to be captured I'd go with any of the not-instant-death, slavery types. Hard work kills people slower then bullets. Now, let me ask you a question. What, in all the fiction, would convince you that Haley or Cygnar is not the "good" guy?
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 14, 2017 18:44:05 GMT
What, in all the fiction, would convince you that Haley or Cygnar is not the "good" guy? But in fiction, they are written from a Perspective of "The Good Guys". They never need to cross lines, they never suffer for not crossing them, and all of their warcasters are outstanding bastions of morality who at worst had to do shady stuff at the behest of a secondary shadow government.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 14, 2017 18:50:08 GMT
What, in all the fiction, would convince you that Haley or Cygnar is not the "good" guy? But in fiction, they are written from a Perspective of "The Good Guys". They never need to cross lines, they never suffer for not crossing them, and all of their warcasters are outstanding bastions of morality who at worst had to do shady stuff at the behest of a secondary shadow government. I guess I should modify/clarify. What, in all the setting that could happen, would convince you that Haley or Cygnar is not the "good" guy? Is there any possible travesty they could commit that you could not rationalize away?
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 14, 2017 19:53:33 GMT
But in fiction, they are written from a Perspective of "The Good Guys". They never need to cross lines, they never suffer for not crossing them, and all of their warcasters are outstanding bastions of morality who at worst had to do shady stuff at the behest of a secondary shadow government. I guess I should modify/clarify. What, in all the setting that could happen, would convince you that Haley or Cygnar is not the "good" guy? Is there any possible travesty they could commit that you could not rationalize away? Sure. In the Haley story I referenced earlier. When Skarre was searching for the prophesied child, Victoria was hidden in a cellar after having run away from the Cryx invaders. Skarre did not know that there were twins. Gloria had tripped earlier, and barely managed to crawl her way into the cellar. She was whimpering with fear and pain. Haley resented her sister's mere presence because it was endangering her life. And she was grateful when they found Gloria but not her. In Apotheosis, Stryker has an arc where he goes total war on the Protectorate. He holds prisoners of war hostage on a boat between Caspia and Sul. Haley/Nemo contemplates joining the Convergence to escape old age/mortality. For the majority of the fluff, Caine is on a mission to kill the bastard son of Vinter Raelthorne, former king of Cygnar. A child who had done no evil, harmed no one. But his existence threatened the security of King Leto. King Leto was a usurper. He stole the throne from his brother. Now, Vinter WAS totally insane, and was leading a genocide against magic users. But still, the crown was stolen. So, they've done/thought about doing bad stuff. They do end up repenting and redeeming themselves, ultimately. But the maim Cygnar casters have all been faced with moral quandries. But here's a good example with some SPOILERS In the recent book 'Acts of War: Flashpoint', Stryker and Magnus are working together, cuz Magnus is presently working for Cygnar. Now, they're bust defending a Cygnaran city from a Khadoran invasion (which came from Khador breaking a treaty agreement, as always). Magnus finds a stockpile of outlawed chemical weapons (I forget the exact name, but it was basically green death). Magnus tried to hide them, but Stryker found out and forbid the use of it. The green death was outlawed because it's basically a Cryx weapon. If you breath it in, your lungs liquify, and your blood boils, all that nasty stuff. Stryker had deemed that Khadorans, as much as they are Cygnar's enemies, don't deserve to die that way. Anyway, the Khadorans invade. The Cygnarans are doing alright in the fight, but it's close. Khador brought a lot of steel with them. Magnus, ignoring orders, had set up many bombs with the green death around the surrounding area. He set them off, and many Khadorans died. After the fight, Stryker stripped Magnus of his rank and had him detained for treason (disobeyed orders from a commanding officer), and war crimes (using outlawed chemical weaponry). To answer your question, if Stryker had not forbid the use of the green death, or punished Magnus for it, then I would consider him evil. The use of weapons that have the purpose of killing with extreme agony would be one travesty I would not indulge.
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