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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 9, 2017 18:33:47 GMT
Speaking strictly from a story perspective, how much of a Mary Sue is Victoria Haley really?
Here's a copy paste of my argument that she has undergone hardship and character development. ----------------------- She was losing her magic powers AND her physical autonomy. There was real conflict for her. She had lost her identity as Warcaster, the one responsable for her entire nation's safety. She had character development with Nemo. They talked about Convergence and their immortal bodies. Haley was legitimately tempted to get one, to the point where she relied on someone else for help, a mechanic, to get her to a meet up with Directrix. She was powerless through this whole time, and couldn't protect the man she had trusted to help her when the Convergence attacked.
Haley spoke more with Nemo (I love that old guy) and she slowly began to realize that if her soul were placed in a clockwork vessel, then she'd be the same as her sister, a soul clinging to a lesser sort of life. Haley had to gp through all of these revelations, and then make a choice. Should she die, or relinquish that which makes her human. It was only when she decided that lingering in a clockwork vessel is not preferable to death that she finds the inner focus to weave the temporal threads of her whole being together. She sacrifices the idea of immortality and perfection, invulnerablity from the poison that afflicted her, and in turn she brings out her own ultimate strength by being herself, past, present, and future in totality.
Haley's story is poetic af. By giving up artificial means to escape suffering, she instead bears the pain totally in order to transcend it. The false potential of being a machine is cast aside for the real power of humanity, wilpower, and desire. She destroys that which is not her own (mechanical arm), and makes herself whole again.
Haley is my second favorite character in IK, right after Stryker. Frankly, I'm tired of her being called Mary Sue. Her and Denny's story is actually one of the more interesting stories in the lore. -----------------------
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Post by tesoe on Jun 9, 2017 18:43:01 GMT
Thanks for moving this into it's own thread.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 9, 2017 19:02:15 GMT
----------------------- She was losing her magic powers AND her physical autonomy. There was real conflict for her. She had lost her identity as Warcaster, the one responsable for her entire nation's safety. She had character development with Nemo. They talked about Convergence and their immortal bodies. Haley was legitimately tempted to get one, to the point where she relied on someone else for help, a mechanic, to get her to a meet up with Directrix. She was powerless through this whole time, and couldn't protect the man she had trusted to help her when the Convergence attacked. Haley spoke more with Nemo (I love that old guy) and she slowly began to realize that if her soul were placed in a clockwork vessel, then she'd be the same as her sister, a soul clinging to a lesser sort of life. Haley had to gp through all of these revelations, and then make a choice. Should she die, or relinquish that which makes her human. It was only when she decided that lingering in a clockwork vessel is not preferable to death that she finds the inner focus to weave the temporal threads of her whole being together. She sacrifices the idea of immortality and perfection, invulnerablity from the poison that afflicted her, and in turn she brings out her own ultimate strength by being herself, past, present, and future in totality. Haley's story is poetic af. By giving up artificial means to escape suffering, she instead bears the pain totally in order to transcend it. The false potential of being a machine is cast aside for the real power of humanity, wilpower, and desire. She destroys that which is not her own (mechanical arm), and makes herself whole again. Haley is my second favorite character in IK, right after Stryker. Frankly, I'm tired of her being called Mary Sue. Her and Denny's story is actually one of the more interesting stories in the lore. ----------------------- Alright I respect your choice to move here, here is my argument: Then it's not anime writing but Saturday morning cartoon writing. What you listed sounds even more awful. Its very much Saturday morning cartoons when the character makes the "right" choice, and then fate rewards them anyway. I liked its a wonderful life, but that was about how by focusing on how he felt useless, he didn't realize that people around him cared about him so much and how much of a virtuous person he was. And then they help him. It wasn't that "Oh well your a good guy, here, have 10 million dollars" There is NOTHING Poetic about that. Poetic is forgoing perfection if it means forgoing life and DYING. Not getting insta cured because "Man Aren't me in the past, present and future awesome?" You know what had better writing? Tiger and Freaking Bunny (Tis an Anime that was alright). Tiger was a truly devoted superhero, kind to everybody and the like. He found himself loosing his superpowers, but he decided that he would not surrender, and would continue fighting until his superpowers ran out completely. Fate didn't reward him by suddenly granting him more power. I don't care if you like her. I am of the opinion that she's an awful, black hole stain character on the face of warmachine, and nothing you listed sounds poetic. Shes not a Mary sue by definition. Shes not a self insert, or a added on character. But shes a bland one that represents all that is wrong about cygnar.
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Post by chillychinaman on Jun 9, 2017 19:20:04 GMT
While I'm not saying only Haley/Cygnar is guilty of being a Mary Sue, I have to agree with @rowdy Dragon on this.
I'd honestly have been mostly happy with Haley as a character had Haley 3 not happened. Like previously said, it cheapens her revelation and decision to remain "human."
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 9, 2017 19:27:36 GMT
While I'm not saying only Haley/Cygnar is guilty of being a Mary Sue,
She isn't one by dictionary definition. And so many casters in Warmachine are just "The Besterest besters who ever besterestered". Its how it's done, and how they handle a challenge that really can notch them up into obnoxious. Madrak ironhide is a good example. He forgoes great power, and instead he finds a closer kinmanship with his people, and actually begins to solve his problem by instead deciding to relocate someplace easier, instead of fighting until all his people are dead (But at least we got revenge)
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 9, 2017 19:40:00 GMT
I've not read the lore though i would like to.
In this case it does really sound like a story of impossible convenience. "Woe is me" should I die like everyone else or should i pay a price to become immortal. The convenience is that by being like everyone else she's granted the greater power. Then why isn't everyone who might die getting epic super powers for dying? It's a terrible cliche that the protagonist is put in peril but then ex-machina'd out of it from sheer willpower. Unless she's got a green ring on her finger and a weakness to all things yellow, that's a load of bull.
Now don't get me wrong, that has been a long established story mechanic. I suffered, i put in effort, i came out the other side better than before. That is a form of progression. But again you never see the villain going through that. The villain never says "NO!" loud enough to suddenly unleash a super power to defeat the protagonist out right and win the war. It's a bias to ally one's self with the character that is seen as just and that their efforts should be rewarded in kind. Where as the villain who spent their entire life planning, building, training, etc is defeated by lack luster friendship and artificial determination.
In short - Plot armor.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 9, 2017 19:42:24 GMT
She turned down the one cure she knew would work, KNOWING that doing so would kill her. The fact that she survived doesn't change the value of the choice.
She had to realize the cost before achieving "temporal enlightenment" (which is what I will call it). Haley had to accept the tragic weakness in the human condition before overcoming it. It's very important that it happened that way. She didn't just get her power and life back because fate allowed for it. She got the power that comes from such a choice.
I believe that the problem you are facing, Rowdy, is that the story is VERY symbolic. It does not work off of gritty realism, but rather traditional story archetypes and themes.
Dennegra serves as the Cain (not Caine) to Haley's Abel. This is a new state to Haley, basically a fall from innocence. While young she endured a terrible and traumatic event where her whole village was killed by Cryx, and her sister was stolen. But Victoria became powerful. Really powerful. Haley was a prodigy of a Warcaster, so no matter the danger she faced, she could handle it.
But then the monster from her past, the event she could never change, came back. Dennegra returns, a phantom creature of darkness and cruelty. They fight. Haley very nearly dies in that fight, and only survives because Dennegra lets her gaurd down. Still, Haley loses an arm.
The arm has very obvious meaning. Haley as an entity was compromised in her duel with the embodiement of resentful hatred. She lost a part of herself that is visually apparent, and psycologically valuable.
Dennegra returns, as malevolence and hatred always do, as a spectre. With a necromatic poison, she inflicts a mortality of Haley. This is comparable to a fall from godhood. Victoria becomes mortal, vulnerable. Things look more grim than ever before.
Haley is presented with the philosophers stone of alchemy (which is exactly what the clockwork bodies of C.O.C. are). She has a way out, a way to never be hurt again, a way to be powerful forever, perfect.
But through her story, Haley learns that that is a hollow life. It is stagnant to live like that. She rejects the perfection of immortality, and accepts her flawed life, beginning to end. Only then when she is oriented properly as a human being does she become master of her own potential. Haley takes ownership of her past experience, her present condition, and her future potential. In doing so, one can transcend any suffering and gain great power. That is the very essence of humanity, and that is the central idea of the story.
So, yeah, poetic af.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 9, 2017 19:44:08 GMT
The villain never says "NO!" loud enough to suddenly unless a super power to defeat the protagonist out right and win the war. It's a bias to ally one's self with the character that is seen as just and that their efforts should be rewarded in kind. Where as the villain who spent their entire life planning, building, training, etc is defeated by lack luster friendship and artificial determination. I like willpower when it's not a quantifiable thing that fills up your mana meter but a means to measure your devotion or courage. "I have the willpower to DIE if it means ensuring that my enemy will not rise again to threaten those I love" and the villain is usually the villain (In simpler stories at least) Is the coward that has everything handed to them. Of course if both hero and villain are evenly willed then thats a whole other kind of interesting.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 9, 2017 19:44:54 GMT
She turned down the one cure she knew would work, KNOWING that doing so would kill her. The fact that she survived doesn't change the value of the choice. Narrative choice. So narratively it matters and as a narrative its not poetic.
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Post by W0lfBane on Jun 9, 2017 21:45:52 GMT
Speaking poetic AF i love the bit where she steals an arm from one of herselves from a different timeline. I just imagine there is timberline somewhere where a Haley is walking around with two missing arms cursing herself and plotting against Herself
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Post by Korianneder on Jun 9, 2017 22:08:44 GMT
Haley is presented with the philosophers stone of alchemy (which is exactly what the clockwork bodies of C.O.C. are). She has a way out, a way to never be hurt again, a way to be powerful forever, perfect. But through her story, Haley learns that that is a hollow life. It is stagnant to live like that. She rejects the perfection of immortality, and accepts her flawed life, beginning to end. Only then when she is oriented properly as a human being does she become master of her own potential. Haley takes ownership of her past experience, her present condition, and her future potential. In doing so, one can transcend any suffering and gain great power. That is the very essence of humanity, and that is the central idea of the story. So, yeah, poetic af. I think this is what I hate the most about Haley. Giving up doesn't make you a hero. Dying doesn't save your country and your people from your evil sister. She made the choice to die instead of doing something that could help her save her friends and family. That's not noble. That's selfish. She couldn't face what she might be like, so she said screw you guys, I'm giving up. She should have died like the coward she was. Instead she found magic time lord powers that let her save herself and basically hit the reset button on her life. It's not a good story. It's a convoluted reason as to why she's still in the fluff. A better story would have been her taking the body and learning to live with her newself. It would have been a much better story about a character who couldn't even escape death and has to deal with that fact in order to save her country. Instead there was a generic deus ex Haley.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 9, 2017 22:14:53 GMT
Haley is presented with the philosophers stone of alchemy (which is exactly what the clockwork bodies of C.O.C. are). She has a way out, a way to never be hurt again, a way to be powerful forever, perfect. But through her story, Haley learns that that is a hollow life. It is stagnant to live like that. She rejects the perfection of immortality, and accepts her flawed life, beginning to end. Only then when she is oriented properly as a human being does she become master of her own potential. Haley takes ownership of her past experience, her present condition, and her future potential. In doing so, one can transcend any suffering and gain great power. That is the very essence of humanity, and that is the central idea of the story. So, yeah, poetic af. I think this is what I hate the most about Haley. Giving up doesn't make you a hero. Dying doesn't save your country and your people from your evil sister. She made the choice to die instead of doing something that could help her save her friends and family. That's not noble. That's selfish. She couldn't face what she might be like, so she said screw you guys, I'm giving up. She should have died like the coward she was. Instead she found magic time lord powers that let her save herself and basically hit the reset button on her life. It's not a good story. It's a convoluted reason as to why she's still in the fluff. A better story would have been her taking the body and learning to live with her newself. It would have been a much better story about a character who couldn't even escape death and has to deal with that fact in order to save her country. Instead there was a generic deus ex Haley. If she were inside of a mechanical body, how connected to her countrymen could ahe possibly be? She'd be a robot. Her grasp on morals would fade away, because she'd lose the one thing connecting her to people, vulnerability. Taking the clockwork body would have been cowardly. It was too easy, and too powerful, and she would be indebted to enemies that she does not understand or trust. It was undoubtedly the wiser choice to go without it, even if that meant death. Better to die, than to lose yourself. Sure, you can make a deal with the devil and live forever. But since when has such a deal come with no strings attatched?
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Post by whiskeydave on Jun 9, 2017 22:26:49 GMT
As a clockwork being, she could have guided her people to immortality in the perfect mathematical aura of Cyriss.
Fleshy coward.
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Post by Korianneder on Jun 9, 2017 22:29:48 GMT
I think this is what I hate the most about Haley. Giving up doesn't make you a hero. Dying doesn't save your country and your people from your evil sister. She made the choice to die instead of doing something that could help her save her friends and family. That's not noble. That's selfish. She couldn't face what she might be like, so she said screw you guys, I'm giving up. She should have died like the coward she was. Instead she found magic time lord powers that let her save herself and basically hit the reset button on her life. It's not a good story. It's a convoluted reason as to why she's still in the fluff. A better story would have been her taking the body and learning to live with her newself. It would have been a much better story about a character who couldn't even escape death and has to deal with that fact in order to save her country. Instead there was a generic deus ex Haley. If she were inside of a mechanical body, how connected to her countrymen could ahe possibly be? She'd be a robot. Her grasp on morals would fade away, because she'd lose the one thing connecting her to people, vulnerability. Taking the clockwork body would have been cowardly. It was too easy, and too powerful, and she would be indebted to enemies that she does not understand or trust. It was undoubtedly the wiser choice to go without it, even if that meant death. Better to die, than to lose yourself. Sure, you can make a deal with the devil and live forever. But since when has such a deal come with no strings attatched? Whoa whoa whoa. Convergence aren't devils. Stop being roboracist . Haley gave up her vulnerability when she reached into the time stream and pulled out a different version of herself to heal her wounds. Did that other version of herself have countrymen that she was trying to protect? What's happening there? She's basically a god in the fluff. I don't thing she has anything connecting her to her people anymore.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 9, 2017 22:37:50 GMT
If she were inside of a mechanical body, how connected to her countrymen could ahe possibly be? She'd be a robot. Her grasp on morals would fade away, because she'd lose the one thing connecting her to people, vulnerability. Taking the clockwork body would have been cowardly. It was too easy, and too powerful, and she would be indebted to enemies that she does not understand or trust. It was undoubtedly the wiser choice to go without it, even if that meant death. Better to die, than to lose yourself. Sure, you can make a deal with the devil and live forever. But since when has such a deal come with no strings attatched? Whoa whoa whoa. Convergence aren't devils. Stop being roboracist . Haley gave up her vulnerability when she reached into the time stream and pulled out a different version of herself to heal her wounds. Did that other version of herself have countrymen that she was trying to protect? What's happening there? She's basically a god in the fluff. I don't thing she has anything connecting her to her people anymore. Convergence is morally ambiguous, but the use of a clockwork vessel is a deal with the devil in the sense that you get a ton of power in exchange for the sacrifice of morality. And it is a dangerous fool who casts aside moral strength for power.
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