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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 14, 2017 7:44:36 GMT
It's the oldest story in the world about two people bound together, one gets their strength from holding tight to moral ideals, the other draws strength from corruption and denegration (Deneghra) of those ideals ...But Cain and Abel where brothers and the contrast of Good/Evil is with how they both lived together. Degenera was kidnapped and trained to be a killer from BIRTH. That kinda undermines any connections or points in the myth. But you are correct in how completly rancid undue importance is HEAPED apon Haley and Degenera for just being BORN. Its Cygnars world I suppose, we are only playing in it. |
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 14, 2017 13:14:49 GMT
It's the oldest story in the world about two people bound together, one gets their strength from holding tight to moral ideals, the other draws strength from corruption and denegration (Deneghra) of those ideals ...But Cain and Abel where brothers and the contrast of Good/Evil is with how they both lived together. Degenera was kidnapped and trained to be a killer from BIRTH. That kinda undermines any connections or points in the myth. But you are correct in how completly rancid undue importance is HEAPED apon Haley and Degenera for just being BORN. Its Cygnars world I suppose, we are only playing in it. Okay, so first off, Gloria Haley (Deneghra) was not abducted at birth. When Gloria and Victoria were young girls, their village on the coast of Cygnar was attacked by the Pirate Queen Skarre. Everyone was brutally murdered. They found Gloria, but not Victoria. It is important that they have memories of eachother, and that Victoria thought her sister was certainly dead, and the Deneghra would definitely start to resent her sister for having a better lot than herself. (Source: Haley, a Warmachine Story) Now then, there are several symbolic links between Haley and Denny, and Abel and Cain. Abel was a shepherd. Now, shepherds weren't just cutesy dudes hanging around sheep. They had to fend off wolves, carry sheep to safey, and be proficient with some weapons. Behold, Haley is a Cygnaran Warcaster. Her ultimate goal is protecting the people of Cygnar from the wolves at their gates. (And from a Cygnaran point of view, that is the situation. They have enemies on all sides.) As well, Cain worked the soil. He was a farmer. What can soil be associated with? Uncleanliness and Death. Hi, Denny! When Haley and Denny first do battle, that is the parallel to Cain and Abel making their offerings. Haley makes an offering as a shepherd, Deneghra makes an offering as a farmer. The parallel comes in because Denny fought leisurely, but Haley fought for her life the whole time. (This wasn't because Haley had a better work ethic necessarily, it's just that Denny was way more powerful, and Haley had to fight for her life.) Now, the God in this story is Fate (and they're the same thing here).So, Cain/Denny made a subpar offering compared to the firstborn lamb that Abel/Haley offered. Fate was pleased with Haley, because her offering was the best it could possibly be, and displeased with Deneghra. Haley won the fight, lost an arm (a representation of her offering), and Denny lost her life (because fate favored her sister). So, what happens next? Well, Cain tries to slay Abel. Cain lures Abel out into a field, and kills him. Denny tells Haley that Nemo is going to be assassinated in an area, when Haley gets there she is poisoned by her sister. Okay, I'll address the small points you made: 1. Yes, they're sisters, not brothers. That's hardly integral to the story, and changes very little. 2. They did live together for the first years of life. Fate assigned each of them a role. Haley got to be a Warcaster-Shepherd. Denny became a Witch-Famer. And before it comes up, no, farmers are not evil. Cain was not a diligent farmer, and it was the lesser nature of his sacrifice that made him lose. |
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 14, 2017 13:24:12 GMT
OK, now I believe it went from mildly stretching too aggressively stretching a VERY tenuous connection to Cain and Abel. I'm not trying to be offensive. My internet writing comes off as nasty but Im calm and just typing this up all relaxed and such. And just because there are parallels kinda the entire point of the story is missed. A sacrifice is not a battle. What the heck does a "Battle to the death have to do with the idea of sacrifice and envy? And if you are correct then the very fates bend to whatever miserable fart that Haley does. That makes her an even more obnoxious character. Everything is about Haley, and all the other stife, and struggle is a sidenote to this toity tarts ascension. I just hope she Firetrucks off to godhood already so that millions can kiss her freakin ass now. |
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Post by Korianneder on Jun 14, 2017 13:58:48 GMT
Yea I'm with the rambunctious dragon on this one. I haven't seen such sketchy connections since I had to bullshit my way through a college English course. Haley's story is that of someone who the developers really like and use as a poster child of the game. She's gets to be all powerful because they say so. This is why I always root for Lex Luther over superman because being able to do anything because you can is just bad story writing. I don't recall the story where Abel brought himself back to life by ripping out a parallel future version of himself.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 14, 2017 14:18:29 GMT
OK, now I believe it went from mildly stretching too aggressively stretching a VERY tenuous connection to Cain and Abel. I'm not trying to be offensive. My internet writing comes off as nasty but Im calm and just typing this up all relaxed and such. And just because there are parallels kinda the entire point of the story is missed. A sacrifice is not a battle. What the heck does a "Battle to the death have to do with the idea of sacrifice and envy? And if you are correct then the very fates bend to whatever miserable fart that Haley does. That makes her an even more obnoxious character. Everything is about Haley, and all the other stife, and struggle is a sidenote to this toity tarts ascension. I just hope she Firetrucks off to godhood already so that millions can kiss her freakin ass now. So, you're saying "Abel OP, pls nerf"? A battle to the death is absolutely a time of sacrifice. I'm sure you would agree that in a boxing match between two people of similar talent the one that would stand victorious would be the fighter who A) Trained harder B) Fought harder C) Payed attention during the fight Now, those are sacrifices. Ask any athlete, those are sacrifices. And it is obvious that those sacrifices pay off. Now, maybe they both trained as hard. But Haley fought as hard as she could. Denny played with her prey, took her time, relished the slaughter. Because of that, Haley was the one paying attention, she saw an opening, and used it to win. Denny's sacrifice was not as good. I guess the meaning of Cain and Abel's story needs to be explained. Abel worked harder than Cain. It payed off. Cain grew resentful of Abel, the brother he admired. Cain killed Abel. Killing Abel destroyed Cain. Now, is it not obvious that the hardest worker has the best shot at success? That is a rule in our world that nobody questions. It is self evident. The student who studies hardest does well on a test. A diligent worker finishes on time. And the warrior who battles with everything they have certainly improves their chances of survival. |
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 14, 2017 14:19:39 GMT
Yea I'm with the rambunctious dragon on this one. I haven't seen such sketchy connections since I had to bullshit my way through a college English course. Haley's story is that of someone who the developers really like and use as a poster child of the game. She's gets to be all powerful because they say so. This is why I always root for Lex Luther over superman because being able to do anything because you can is just bad story writing. I don't recall the story where Abel brought himself back to life by ripping out a parallel future version of himself. Which parts of my analysis are you opposing, and why? |
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 14, 2017 14:23:26 GMT
So, if that is indeed the fluff then yes I can see the parallels. It's usually hubris that is the downfall of the villain. In this case it just so happens Cryx isn't perturbed by dying if the lose.
I would also draw allusion to the classic hero's journey archetype. Both sisters were faced with hardship and a path to power. One chose a noble path the other did not. They both reached a point of equalt footing. The Skywalker line is a perfect example. Both journeys are practically the same. But they both turn out completely opposite. In the end Vader is far more powerful than Luke. Luke fights for his life. But in the end fate favored the one who is perceived to be right or just.
Now the term fate in this case is not a quantifiable or even balanced force. It's the Author. They alone decide what happens. So in these cases the Author favors who they want to continue their story. That's all the Haley story is. By definition she's not an original Mary Sue. She's not meant to be at least. It just that "Mary Sue" has be twisted and applied to more than it should. It just happens that the Author favors a particular character and that's the end of the debate. You might not like that but it's not your story to right. If you have any experience writing you will find that you become attached to certain characters and you give them mostly favorable outcomes.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 14, 2017 14:28:57 GMT
So, you're saying "Abel OP, pls nerf"? A battle to the death is absolutely a time of sacrifice. No. I'm saying Haley is OP, and boring, and an attention vacuum. Cain and Abels sacrifice wasn't practical. A battle requires training hard. But so does ANYTHING IN LIFE. Cain and abel is a story about sacrificing something not for yourself but for somebody else. And Cain out of the bitterness that his sacrifice wasn't as powerful killed his brother. "Haley sacrifced because she trained to make herself more awesome" isn't sacrifice. Or at least stretches the metaphor. Kharchev exists in a state of eternal pain for over a hundred years now, but resists death because he wants to fight for the motherland. When he got captured he endured all sorts of indignities and wanted death not because of the pain, but because he feared he wouldn't hold out and would become a weapon to be used against his peers. Where is his god time powers? The fluff for Winter Guards is that they are willing to sacrifice lives for Joe (And now warcasters). Where is their Winter God Powers? Strahkov survived in that Cryxian tunnel hellhole because of Loyalty to Kharchev, and the motherland, and didn't abandon him despite his, please. Why aint his eye popping back in? I already mentioned Madrak and his sacrifices, and skorne is pretty much an entire nation founded on sacrifice. But its not Haleys level of sacrifice that makes her special. It's her gifted time power advantage. |
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 14, 2017 14:36:01 GMT
So, if that is indeed the fluff then yes I can see the parallels. It's usually hubris that is the downfall of the villain. In this case it just so happens Cryx isn't perturbed by dying if the lose. I would also draw allusion to the classic hero's journey archetype. Both sisters were faced with hardship and a path to power. One chose a noble path the other did not. They both reached a point of equalt footing. The Skywalker line is a perfect example. Both journeys are practically the same. But they both turn out completely opposite. In the end Vader is far more powerful than Luke. Luke fights for his life. But in the end fate favored the one who is perceived to be right or just. Now the term fate in this case is not a quantifiable or even balanced force. It's the Author. They alone decide what happens. So in these cases the Author favors who they want to continue their story. That's all the Haley story is. By definition she's not an original Mary Sue. She's not meant to be at least. It just that "Mary Sue" has be twisted and applied to more than it should. It just happens that the Author favors a particular character and that's the end of the debate. You might not like that but it's not your story to right. If you have any experience writing you will find that you become attached to certain characters and you give them mostly favorable outcomes. Also worth noting that the story isn't over yet. As you say, death alone is not the end for a Cryx warcaster. Haley and Denny still have business to attend to. Personally, I think we're approaching a battle of the gods, Morrow and Thamar will die (either killing each other, or fighting the devourer wurm together). Then Haley and Denny will take their place. After that, we'll get Haley4, who's actually Gloria Haley (Denny) from an alternate timeline where Victoria was stolen away as a child, ans Gloria stayed in Cygnar. And we'll get Denny4, Warwitch Stagnatia (I'm bad at names), who is that Victoria. Haley4 will buff all of her models stats dramatically (opposite of The Withering), and Denny4 will use time magic to age and corrode her enemies. I know it sounds like fanfiction, but it seems like something PP would do. |
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 14, 2017 14:40:42 GMT
I know it sounds like fanfiction, but it seems like something PP would do. Yup. I expect it completely. |
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Post by Korianneder on Jun 14, 2017 14:49:36 GMT
Yea I'm with the rambunctious dragon on this one. I haven't seen such sketchy connections since I had to bullshit my way through a college English course. Haley's story is that of someone who the developers really like and use as a poster child of the game. She's gets to be all powerful because they say so. This is why I always root for Lex Luther over superman because being able to do anything because you can is just bad story writing. I don't recall the story where Abel brought himself back to life by ripping out a parallel future version of himself. Which parts of my analysis are you opposing, and why? Quite a bit, but forgive me it's difficult to type on my phone. First, farms are rarely associated with unclean and death. In fact just the opposite. Farms are traditionally associated with life and rebirth. It's where the life sustaining food comes from. Look at most of the gods of the harvest. Second it never states outright why God preferred Abels offering over Cains. The story doesn't say Cain was lazy or anything like that. It says he brought from the fruit of the soil an offering to the Lord. There's also the belief he rejected Cain's offering because it wasn't a blood offering, it was merely produce. At no point is Cain described as lazy or anything like that though. Some scholars even believe he was rejected because he thought his offering was too good. He presented it out of pride rather than faith. It wasn't that God preferred Cain. It was that he was against Abel. Fate however prefers the crap out of Haley as evidenced by deus ex Haley. |
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 14, 2017 14:50:43 GMT
. But its not Haleys level of sacrifice that makes her special. It's her gifted time power advantage. Well, obviously. Haley has greater potential than the majority of warcasters. Just like all warcasters have greater potential than most people. The moral of the story is that the hero lives up to their potential. It is not necessary that the hero have the greatest potential. As you say, a single winterguard can be a hero by sacrificing his life for his Nation. Kharchev surviving for so long and fighting so hard is probably his maximum potential, and it is heroic to reach that(although Khador's intentions are not the best). Haley has incredible natural power. With great power, comes great responsability, and all that jazz. If she uses her power for the greatest possible reason in the best possible way, she can save her country. If she does not do so, then she does not live up to her potential. Haley seeks to help her people, Denny seeks to help herself. But it is Haley who strives the furthest, and places as much trust in her own potential as possible. It is Denny who constantly uses the power of other sources to strengthen her. That's her downfall, instead of striving towards her own best possible strength, she uses souls, blood rituals, and necromatic magic to fuel herself. |
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 14, 2017 14:58:19 GMT
Which parts of my analysis are you opposing, and why? Quite a bit, but forgive me it's difficult to type on my phone. First, farms are rarely associated with unclean and death. In fact just the opposite. Farms are traditionally associated with life and rebirth. It's where the life sustaining food comes from. Look at most of the gods of the harvest. Second it never states outright why God preferred Abels offering over Cains. The story doesn't say Cain was lazy or anything like that. It says he brought from the fruit of the soil an offering to the Lord. There's also the belief he rejected Cain's offering because it wasn't a blood offering, it was merely produce. At no point is Cain described as lazy or anything like that though. Some scholars even believe he was rejected because he thought his offering was too good. He presented it out of pride rather than faith. It wasn't that God preferred Cain. It was that he was against Abel. Fate however prefers the crap out of Haley as evidenced by deus ex Haley. In Genesis, Adam is CURSED to have to work the land. In the time of this story, it's very, very old, farming was not pleasant or considered beautiful. Yes, it later aquired that conotation, but that took a while. And soil can absolutely be associated with being unclean (dirt-y), and death (you get buried in the ground, all things decompose into soil). As I said, farming isn't evil, but symbolically it is linked to a less pleasant life than shepherding. And fine, Cain wasn't necessarily lazy, but being too prideful in your work usually means you could work harder. Humility is important, and Denny lost her fight with Haley because of hubris. Fate isn't necessarily a sentient thing. Call it reality of you want. But Haley was victorious in her sacrifice because she gave the best she could, and that's a real thing. |
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 14, 2017 15:09:49 GMT
Well, obviously. Haley has greater potential than the majority of warcasters. Just like all warcasters have greater potential than most people. The moral of the story is that the hero lives up to their potential. It is not necessary that the hero have the greatest potential. As you say, a single winterguard can be a hero by sacrificing his life for his Nation. Kharchev surviving for so long and fighting so hard is probably his maximum potential, and it is heroic to reach that(although Khador's intentions are not the best). Haley has incredible natural power. With great power, comes great responsability, and all that jazz. If she uses her power for the greatest possible reason in the best possible way, she can save her country. If she does not do so, then she does not live up to her potential. Haley seeks to help her people, Denny seeks to help herself. But it is Haley who strives the furthest, and places as much trust in her own potential as possible. It is Denny who constantly uses the power of other sources to strengthen her. That's her downfall, instead of striving towards her own best possible strength, she uses souls, blood rituals, and necromatic magic to fuel herself. ehh, you're getting into perspective again. It's is only a social construct that using powers from other source that are "perceived" to be evil, make the person evil. I'm not arguing Denny of Cryx isn't evil. It's just that good and evil is perspective and usually whoever wins is the "right" one. then you literally mention "fighting for their country" twice but immediately associate one with good and the other is not. It's the same motivation but your perspective favors Cygnar rather than Khador. Karchev is as much a hero of the people as Haley. So all things being equal... where is Karchev, God of strife. But again Authors and readers will lean one way or the other. It's just that the author is the one who decides what's "right" and so it gives a feeling of validation to the readers who agree. |
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Post by Korianneder on Jun 14, 2017 15:40:00 GMT
In Genesis, Adam is CURSED to have to work the land. In the time of this story, it's very, very old, farming was not pleasant or considered beautiful. Yes, it later aquired that conotation, but that took a while. And soil can absolutely be associated with being unclean (dirt-y), and death (you get buried in the ground, all things decompose into soil). This is the kind of stretching I was talking about. Soil can be associated with unclean or death, but farming rarely is. Also farming is literally the first job god gives to man. He says he's made everything and it's our job to take care of it. Adam was punished because he started feeling pain. Him and Eve were created to be farmers. I've never heard of someone viewing farming as an evil or bad thing, especially in regards to what's in the bible. Though I admit I'm far from an expert on the subject. I'd be interested if you could link to an article online or something like that. Prior to the bible the old gods of the harvest were mostly young fertile women. This again emphasized the life and rebirth aspect of the harvest. |
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