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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 10, 2017 16:05:47 GMT
From the way that Haley and Denny's reunion of souls has been alluded to, I would expect a much more cataclysmic event from it.
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Post by HereComesTomorrow on Jun 10, 2017 16:09:42 GMT
I dunno, I'd read about Girly Clockwork Dr Manhattan.
Characterisation and events leading from characters doing stuff based on their personality is more satisfying to me than whizzbang super explosions happening just because.
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Post by Deadneck on Jun 10, 2017 16:38:22 GMT
From the way that Haley and Denny's reunion of souls has been alluded to, I would expect a much more cataclysmic event from it. I would expect it would be the last step before ascension to godhood. I also think that we tend to overvalue characters becoming cynical or disillusioned in stories, and undervalue the strength of character to remain optimistic/idealistic despite events encouraging you to do otherwise. The temptation to abuse power is actually one of the more common story arcs for characters like Haley and Superman. When you achieve the amount of power they have it becomes a constant battle to keep your ego in check. I think Haley has a lot in common with planeswalkers from MTG: their power usually activates at the moment they would otherwise die and they become effectively gods. Over time their immortality causes them to slowly lose their humanity and they stop caring about people and more about their own goals. Gaining a lot of power without putting in the work is not a bad story, it just means the story is now about how you handle the sudden increase in power.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 10, 2017 17:01:47 GMT
I also think that we tend to overvalue characters becoming cynical or disillusioned in stories, and undervalue the strength of character to remain optimistic/idealistic despite events encouraging you to do otherwise. I think that's a false dichotomy. I have already mentioned multiple optimistic stories about people not losing their optimism in the face of danger or the like. My point is that without real adversity and struggle, that idealism is hollow. MTG is really poorly written (Especially recently). So it's not a good example. Dealing with power is a hollow story. The question is dealing with RESPONSIBILITY. Which Haley Did not raise. In fact, I think she dropped responsibility to focus on being all powerful and shit.
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Post by HereComesTomorrow on Jun 10, 2017 17:05:41 GMT
From the way that Haley and Denny's reunion of souls has been alluded to, I would expect a much more cataclysmic event from it. I would expect it would be the last step before ascension to godhood. I also think that we tend to overvalue characters becoming cynical or disillusioned in stories, and undervalue the strength of character to remain optimistic/idealistic despite events encouraging you to do otherwise. The temptation to abuse power is actually one of the more common story arcs for characters like Haley and Superman. When you achieve the amount of power they have it becomes a constant battle to keep your ego in check. I think Haley has a lot in common with planeswalkers from MTG: their power usually activates at the moment they would otherwise die and they become effectively gods. Over time their immortality causes them to slowly lose their humanity and they stop caring about people and more about their own goals. Gaining a lot of power without putting in the work is not a bad story, it just means the story is now about how you handle the sudden increase in power. I don't think cynicism is overvalued at all because its a part of what makes a person human. Overcoming it is what makes them heroes instead of villains. If characters are always paragons of virtue then they become unrelatable.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 10, 2017 17:08:59 GMT
I don't think cynicism is overvalued at all because its a part of what makes a person human. Overcoming it is what makes them heroes instead of villains. If characters are always paragons of virtue then they become unrelatable. I don't think so. I think its about how well and organic the testing is. Characters can be aspirational, and still relatable with how difficult it is to be the example. Watch Superman in the JLAU, and watch some real neat moral struggle.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 13, 2017 17:56:07 GMT
Copy paste from Company of Iron It's not stealing, it's projecting. It's like copy-paste. Hale- I mean Keller just projects an alternate timeline's arm- I mean cape onto her body. She said awkwardly. But deep inside she knew the true horror. For every object, she stole from alternate realities in order to prolong her selfish existence another one would be left without it. But then she remembered shes awesome and then forgot all about it. She then murdered all of Cygnars enemies all on her own because poetry made her so much better then everybody else who worked really hard but I guess weren't poetic enough to receive the ability to replace stuff they lost because they felt like it. Thats nothing like that at all. Using a chunk of Soul to create a being, or using a person as a doorway for beings that already exist to enter isn't the same as aperantly being able to copy things indefinetly. If that's her power, isn't she for all intents and purposes utterly indestructible? Can she just keep "Projecting" other bodies or capes? Is it limited to the organic? Hey, now. Her power is not indefinite. Just because someone had to run for their life, and discovered they can run a marathon, doesn't mean they can do it every day. Haley fits very neatly as an archetypal hero. She's gifted with incredible (not limitless) power, and must use it as she sees fit. Victoria tries to use it in the best way possible to help the country she loves, and doesn't want to compromise her morals. She knows the evils she could perform by not using her power properly, because she sees that reflected in her sister. I said it before and will repeat it, Haley and Denny's story is mythological, and most of the other characters in IK is set in a gritty realism. So they clash. They are different genres.
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Post by macdaddy on Jun 13, 2017 18:11:42 GMT
She is as mary sue as it gets...Boring character who never really suffers any long term consequences and you never feel she is ever in any danger because she can Potato her way out of bad situations...bleh.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 13, 2017 18:25:33 GMT
I said it before and will repeat it, Haley and Denny's story is mythological, and most of the other characters in IK is set in a gritty realism. So they clash. They are different genres. And Il say even if it was It wasn't good. I personally enjoy a good superhero tale and even really enjoy Superman Stories when written well (Just watch him animated for cliff note awesome stories). I personally enjoy studying Mythology and most of its messed up and usually ends with somebody being screwed by a goose or something, and I don't really think it fits Haleys "Fight" for Humanity. Even in Hordes Exist better Heroes: Madrak is under much more pressure than Haley ever was. Very much directly responsible for the survival of a people slowly being pushed off the map. Also given a choice between "Power" and "Trollanity" and ends up stricken of the power. He does go "Epic" but by regaining his connection to his people, by stopping being isolated and glum, and because he was no longer rage obsessed actually capable of working on a solution to his people's problem. This displays much more "poetr"y (Doomed Species, Cursed Weapon, Yadda Yadda) of a situation that feels like a no way out scenario, that ends up being positive in nature. Life is still hard, and in a way being deprived of that power has now made things MUCH harder, but also better. He does NOT grow 30 feet tall because he realized "Oh yeah being a Troll is righteous! Trollanity and all that Jazz!" That sort of stuff I only ever read in really insufferable science fiction comic where in black and white morality that would make even "Foolkiller" comics blush, wherein a character is repeatedly harassed for being too virtuous and kind and awesome, and would repeatedly win his way out by just being better and more awesome then all his foes whilst preaching very simplistic and shallow morality about "Human Interaction". Also he ends up being a messiah.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 13, 2017 18:33:05 GMT
[snip] because she can Potato her way out of bad situations...bleh. how does one "potato" out of a situation? I'm unlearned in this and you have my interest. (I'm probably just missing some well known joke)
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 13, 2017 19:53:48 GMT
I said it before and will repeat it, Haley and Denny's story is mythological, and most of the other characters in IK is set in a gritty realism. So they clash. They are different genres. And Il say even if it was It wasn't good. I personally enjoy a good superhero tale and even really enjoy Superman Stories when written well (Just watch him animated for cliff note awesome stories). I personally enjoy studying Mythology and most of its messed up and usually ends with somebody being screwed by a goose or something, and I don't really think it fits Haleys "Fight" for Humanity. Even in Hordes Exist better Heroes: Madrak is under much more pressure than Haley ever was. Very much directly responsible for the survival of a people slowly being pushed off the map. Also given a choice between "Power" and "Trollanity" and ends up stricken of the power. He does go "Epic" but by regaining his connection to his people, by stopping being isolated and glum, and because he was no longer rage obsessed actually capable of working on a solution to his people's problem. This displays much more "poetr"y (Doomed Species, Cursed Weapon, Yadda Yadda) of a situation that feels like a no way out scenario, that ends up being positive in nature. Life is still hard, and in a way being deprived of that power has now made things MUCH harder, but also better. He does NOT grow 30 feet tall because he realized "Oh yeah being a Troll is righteous! Trollanity and all that Jazz!" That sort of stuff I only ever read in really insufferable science fiction comic where in black and white morality that would make even "Foolkiller" comics blush, wherein a character is repeatedly harassed for being too virtuous and kind and awesome, and would repeatedly win his way out by just being better and more awesome then all his foes whilst preaching very simplistic and shallow morality about "Human Interaction". Also he ends up being a messiah. Haley and Denny are the IK version of the Story of the Warring Brothers. I.E. Cain and Abel, Christ and Satan, Batman and the Joker (for comic fans), Guts and Griffith (for anime fans), and so on. It's the oldest story in the world about two people bound together, one gets their strength from holding tight to moral ideals, the other draws strength from corruption and denegration (Deneghra) of those ideals. The story ends when one of them defeats the other. Either Cain is killed/redeemed, or Abel is killed/corrupted.
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Post by macdaddy on Jun 14, 2017 1:06:09 GMT
I said it before and will repeat it, Haley and Denny's story is mythological, and most of the other characters in IK is set in a gritty realism. So they clash. They are different genres. And Il say even if it was It wasn't good. I personally enjoy a good superhero tale and even really enjoy Superman Stories when written well (Just watch him animated for cliff note awesome stories). I personally enjoy studying Mythology and most of its messed up and usually ends with somebody being screwed by a goose or something, and I don't really think it fits Haleys "Fight" for Humanity. Even in Hordes Exist better Heroes: Madrak is under much more pressure than Haley ever was. Very much directly responsible for the survival of a people slowly being pushed off the map. Also given a choice between "Power" and "Trollanity" and ends up stricken of the power. He does go "Epic" but by regaining his connection to his people, by stopping being isolated and glum, and because he was no longer rage obsessed actually capable of working on a solution to his people's problem. This displays much more "poetr"y (Doomed Species, Cursed Weapon, Yadda Yadda) of a situation that feels like a no way out scenario, that ends up being positive in nature. Life is still hard, and in a way being deprived of that power has now made things MUCH harder, but also better. He does NOT grow 30 feet tall because he realized "Oh yeah being a Troll is righteous! Trollanity and all that Jazz!" That sort of stuff I only ever read in really insufferable science fiction comic where in black and white morality that would make even "Foolkiller" comics blush, wherein a character is repeatedly harassed for being too virtuous and kind and awesome, and would repeatedly win his way out by just being better and more awesome then all his foes whilst preaching very simplistic and shallow morality about "Human Interaction". Also he ends up being a messiah. I don't mind "Humanity Firetruck Yeah" one of the reasons I loved the anime Gurren Lagan was the childlike and inspiring (albeit in-realistic and rediculous) acts committed by certain characters when they got emotional or inspired. But there has to be a balance of realism to wash it all down or it gets out of hand and predictable. ForEver_Blight: Wheh I typically say "potato" in reference to an action is basically something stupid and unexplainable happens that deeps out the story. I don't have any particular reason for it other than to me a potatoe is just this bland brown plant no bells and whistles, and when someone "potatoes" it's basically them doing something lame and boring or stupid. I don't have any cool or creative reference. Just a saying because I liked the way it sounded.
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Post by W0lfBane on Jun 14, 2017 3:49:27 GMT
And Il say even if it was It wasn't good. I personally enjoy a good superhero tale and even really enjoy Superman Stories when written well (Just watch him animated for cliff note awesome stories). I personally enjoy studying Mythology and most of its messed up and usually ends with somebody being screwed by a goose or something, and I don't really think it fits Haleys "Fight" for Humanity. Even in Hordes Exist better Heroes: Madrak is under much more pressure than Haley ever was. Very much directly responsible for the survival of a people slowly being pushed off the map. Also given a choice between "Power" and "Trollanity" and ends up stricken of the power. He does go "Epic" but by regaining his connection to his people, by stopping being isolated and glum, and because he was no longer rage obsessed actually capable of working on a solution to his people's problem. This displays much more "poetr"y (Doomed Species, Cursed Weapon, Yadda Yadda) of a situation that feels like a no way out scenario, that ends up being positive in nature. Life is still hard, and in a way being deprived of that power has now made things MUCH harder, but also better. He does NOT grow 30 feet tall because he realized "Oh yeah being a Troll is righteous! Trollanity and all that Jazz!" That sort of stuff I only ever read in really insufferable science fiction comic where in black and white morality that would make even "Foolkiller" comics blush, wherein a character is repeatedly harassed for being too virtuous and kind and awesome, and would repeatedly win his way out by just being better and more awesome then all his foes whilst preaching very simplistic and shallow morality about "Human Interaction". Also he ends up being a messiah. Haley and Denny are the IK version of the Story of the Warring Brothers. I.E. Cain and Abel, Christ and Satan, Batman and the Joker (for comic fans), Guts and Griffith (for anime fans), and so on. It's the oldest story in the world about two people bound together, one gets their strength from holding tight to moral ideals, the other draws strength from corruption and denegration (Deneghra) of those ideals. The story ends when one of them defeats the other. Either Cain is killed/redeemed, or Abel is killed/corrupted. Yeah but gats was never like due to the power of my rage bonner against griffith i can now freely travel between this and the realm of the hands of good. His progress is mostly learning to hunt monsters and slowly wielding bigger and bigger swords. He has to find a bealeth in order to confront grifith and even then fails to defeat him. His determination keeps him alive but never gives him the ability to solve his problem. Like i feel berserk is an alful example of what you're trying to express because berserk doesn't have the same problems that the haley deny sorry does. Sure let's assume they are in essence the same story. One is way better implemented and the other is like "haley ex maxina" all over the place. (Also its spelled Gats, git gud)
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princeraven
Junior Strategist
Shredder spam is best spam
Posts: 256
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Post by princeraven on Jun 14, 2017 4:27:42 GMT
Honestly as much as I dislike the constant spotlight on Haley and how much the ending At What Cost cheapened the impact of what could have been a great story, the Khadoran warcasters are the biggest group of Mary Sues in the Iron Kingdoms.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 14, 2017 5:20:23 GMT
the Khadoran warcasters are the biggest group of Mary Sues in the Iron Kingdoms. Some of them for sure. But they loose, do bad stuff, dont have access or create the besterest equipment in the IK, i find that way more compelling.
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