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Post by Korianneder on Jun 9, 2017 22:52:10 GMT
Whoa whoa whoa. Convergence aren't devils. Stop being roboracist . Haley gave up her vulnerability when she reached into the time stream and pulled out a different version of herself to heal her wounds. Did that other version of herself have countrymen that she was trying to protect? What's happening there? She's basically a god in the fluff. I don't thing she has anything connecting her to her people anymore. Convergence is morally ambiguous, but the use of a clockwork vessel is a deal with the devil in the sense that you get a ton of power in exchange for the sacrifice of morality. And it is a dangerous fool who casts aside moral strength for power. The convergence don't sacrifice their morals. They sacrifice their mortality, but they still have morals. Iron Mother is specifically called out as not wanting her daughter to go through the process right now because she wants Aurora to enjoy her flesh and bone body for longer. Their morals are just more like Protectorates morals. They're dedicated to their god first and foremost. Their god currently has no afterlife for them, so they've chosen to keep their souls in the mortal world. It has nothing to do with having more power. Besides just look at the stats for convergence infantry. They are definitely not gaining power from the transition.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 9, 2017 22:57:38 GMT
She turned down the one cure she knew would work, KNOWING that doing so would kill her. The fact that she survived doesn't change the value of the choice. [snip] But through her story, Haley learns that that is a hollow life. It is stagnant to live like that. She rejects the perfection of immortality, and accepts her flawed life, beginning to end. Only then when she is oriented properly as a human being does she become master of her own potential. Haley takes ownership of her past experience, her present condition, and her future potential. In doing so, one can transcend any suffering and gain great power. That is the very essence of humanity, and that is the central idea of the story. So what you're saying is she found a cure, found out there was a downside and that it was not actually perfect or even preferable, and decided on pure love for her country her emotions to not take the cure. I would also agree that if you had the will and determination to do everything to save your country, you would take the immortality. You can always build a council of humans to act as your moral advisors.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 9, 2017 23:08:33 GMT
Convergence is morally ambiguous, but the use of a clockwork vessel is a deal with the devil in the sense that you get a ton of power in exchange for the sacrifice of morality. And it is a dangerous fool who casts aside moral strength for power. The convergence don't sacrifice their morals. They sacrifice their mortality, but they still have morals. Iron Mother is specifically called out as not wanting her daughter to go through the process right now because she wants Aurora to enjoy her flesh and bone body for longer. Their morals are just more like Protectorates morals. They're dedicated to their god first and foremost. Their god currently has no afterlife for them, so they've chosen to keep their souls in the mortal world. It has nothing to do with having more power. Besides just look at the stats for convergence infantry. They are definitely not gaining power from the transition. Being impervious to pain, and being constantly ressurected is definitely an improvement over the standard human experience, as far as power goes. Directrix doesn't want Aurora to change yet because her human morals are in conflict with her mechanical body, and religious doctrine. And for Haley, it is absolutely a way to escape her own human weakness and become less human. Taking that deal would be a chink in her moral armor. She would have sacrificed part of her humanity for power already. That would always be a temptation from there on. If Haley had taken the new body, it would have been for the wrong reason. And that would corrupt her. Choosing the other path fortified her resolve, and kept her righteous.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 9, 2017 23:23:38 GMT
She turned down the one cure she knew would work, KNOWING that doing so would kill her. The fact that she survived doesn't change the value of the choice. [snip] But through her story, Haley learns that that is a hollow life. It is stagnant to live like that. She rejects the perfection of immortality, and accepts her flawed life, beginning to end. Only then when she is oriented properly as a human being does she become master of her own potential. Haley takes ownership of her past experience, her present condition, and her future potential. In doing so, one can transcend any suffering and gain great power. That is the very essence of humanity, and that is the central idea of the story. So what you're saying is she found a cure, found out there was a downside and that it was not actually perfect or even preferable, and decided on pure love for her country her emotions to not take the cure. I would also agree that if you had the will and determination to do everything to save your country, you would take the immortality. You can always build a council of humans to act as your moral advisors. It is a wise person who knows that unearned power corrupts. The "cure" would take away her weaknesses and fears, but it would only serve to destroy her humanity. She would become a weapon, not a human. It's not that the cure isn't perfect, it's that the clockwork body is the easy way out. To take that option would be to act on emotion. The title of the story I refer to is "At What Cost". And that's the point. At what cost should Haley try to serve her country? You say that everything should be sacrificed? That's not the Cygnaran way. Cygnar stands for people keeping their humanity. We don't use necromancy, blight, fellblades, or even clockwork vessels. Those things would certainly make us stronger, but it wouldn't be Cygnar anymore. We would be a shadow of ourselves, no longer holding onto the moral structure of our culture. At what cost? We will not surrender our humanity, even if that means death.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 9, 2017 23:35:53 GMT
perspective nothing wrong with having said morals. You kind of have to be the pure, moral, people to be the protagonist
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Post by Korianneder on Jun 9, 2017 23:39:34 GMT
perspective nothing wrong with having said morals. You kind of have to be the pure, moral, people to be the protagonist Yea Haley's kind of like Superman. Truth, justice, noble, and boring.
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Post by chillychinaman on Jun 9, 2017 23:47:53 GMT
I think this conversation is veering off toward discussions of transhumanism and the meaning of patriotism. How much is a person expected to sacrifice, "for King and country, " and "what does it mean to be human?" and such other questions.
At the very least, can it be agreed that Haley seemingly has god-like powers and a tendency to come across as a "good-two-shoes" type of character? If so, I think that combination is partially what leads to the negative feedback toward her. That and her being quite powerful on the table top.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on Jun 9, 2017 23:51:50 GMT
Yeah, people don't like the goody-two-shoes bit. But breaking an ideal is bad story telling. That's why nazi Captain America is hated.
Haley and Denny are very obviously parallels to Morrow and Thamar. I will not be surprised when they ascend to godhood in their stead.
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Post by W0lfBane on Jun 10, 2017 0:04:59 GMT
The reason not see captain America is disliked because it figuratively came out of left field and the explanation kind of made no sense. I personally have enjoyed many stories where the character had to overcome or break a long standing ideal they held because of extreme circumstances or after they realized their ideal wasnt that ideal after all. The reason stories about the Joker trying to corrupt batman and get him to break his no kill rule by putting his friends and comrades through atrocities type stories get boring after a while is cause you know batman will never break. Ever.
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Post by Aegis on Jun 10, 2017 0:35:18 GMT
I do not hate Haley fluff and I play Cygnar, but I admit that the last part of "At what cost" was BS...
It was cool up to the part where she decided to suicide (because she didn't even let the poison kill her, she suicided alimenting it with her magic...). To die and simply return more powerful than before because you are special and full of will is not interesting and a plot device good only for child cartoons.
She should have become clockwork, or found another way to survive if she hadn't to die, but right now she is just too much...
Can she die now? Because if every time she is killed, she can just take another of the infinte version of self and revive, why not marching alone to Khador and kill the empress on her throne? How can someone stop her, expecially since she sees the threads of fate and so predicts the future? Fluff-wise right now she is a Superman without Kriptonite, and Superman was an horrible charachter even with a weakness because he was simply too much.
Nah... Until Haley2 she could have been an interesting character imo despite haters, but Haley3 story is just BS.
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Post by Deadneck on Jun 10, 2017 1:36:15 GMT
I do not hate Haley fluff and I play Cygnar, but I admit that the last part of "At what cost" was BS... It was cool up to the part where she decided to suicide (because she didn't even let the poison kill her, she suicided alimenting it with her magic...). To die and simply return more powerful than before because you are special and full of will is not interesting and a plot device good only for child cartoons. She should have become clockwork, or found another way to survive if she hadn't to die, but right now she is just too much... Can she die now? Because if every time she is killed, she can just take another of the infinte version of self and revive, why not marching alone to Khador and kill the empress on her throne? How can someone stop her, expecially since she sees the threads of fate and so predicts the future? Fluff-wise right now she is a Superman without Kriptonite, and Superman was an horrible charachter even with a weakness because he was simply too much. Nah... Until Haley2 she could have been an interesting character imo despite haters, but Haley3 story is just BS. I think that this is a little disingenuous. The problem with Superman is that without kryptonite he is nigh unstoppable without any need for input from him. Haley on the other hand would still require some sort of exertion of power to respawn herself, and nothing I've seen implies her stamina is infinite. I don't understand why people find her survival to be so absurd. To list some points, she is: - Established as possibly the most powerful mortal mage alive
- A time mage
- Committing suicide by power overload
- Making the decision to take her fate into her own hands/die on her terms
Why is it strange that she could respawn with a temporal copy? It's not like she used some power that she's never displayed up until now, just an extension of her established magic. Nor did she do this effortlessly considering the option didn't present itself until she used all her power to die. Would other outcomes have been interesting? Sure. But becoming a demigod also has interesting aspects to it. We will have to see how it plays out to know if it was a good direction for her character or not.
Edit: I would also like to mention about the comments on becoming more powerful through force of will being stupid. Will does not make you stronger. However, it can allow you to exert more than you normally would by continuing despite pain or other adverse effects, or it can present as a decision to do something you are normally unwilling to try. There are times that "will" is used as an idiotic power up mechanism, but it is not completely illegitimate.
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Post by Aegis on Jun 10, 2017 2:09:08 GMT
I do not hate Haley fluff and I play Cygnar, but I admit that the last part of "At what cost" was BS... It was cool up to the part where she decided to suicide (because she didn't even let the poison kill her, she suicided alimenting it with her magic...). To die and simply return more powerful than before because you are special and full of will is not interesting and a plot device good only for child cartoons. She should have become clockwork, or found another way to survive if she hadn't to die, but right now she is just too much... Can she die now? Because if every time she is killed, she can just take another of the infinte version of self and revive, why not marching alone to Khador and kill the empress on her throne? How can someone stop her, expecially since she sees the threads of fate and so predicts the future? Fluff-wise right now she is a Superman without Kriptonite, and Superman was an horrible charachter even with a weakness because he was simply too much. Nah... Until Haley2 she could have been an interesting character imo despite haters, but Haley3 story is just BS. I think that this is a little disingenuous. The problem with Superman is that without kryptonite he is nigh unstoppable without any need for input from him. Haley on the other hand would still require some sort of exertion of power to respawn herself, and nothing I've seen implies her stamina is infinite. I don't understand why people find her survival to be so absurd. To list some points, she is: - Established as possibly the most powerful mortal mage alive
- A time mage
- Committing suicide by power overload
- Making the decision to take her fate into her own hands/die on her terms
Why is it strange that she could respawn with a temporal copy? It's not like she used some power that she's never displayed up until now, just an extension of her established magic. Nor did she do this effortlessly considering the option didn't present itself until she used all her power to die. Would other outcomes have been interesting? Sure. But becoming a demigod also has interesting aspects to it. We will have to see how it plays out to know if it was a good direction for her character or not.
Edit: I would also like to mention about the comments on becoming more powerful through force of will being stupid. Will does not make you stronger. However, it can allow you to exert more than you normally would by continuing despite pain or other adverse effects, or it can present as a decision to do something you are normally unwilling to try. There are times that "will" is used as an idiotic power up mechanism, but it is not completely illegitimate. The 4° point is the problem. Sure, she is a time mage and so on, but she simply became too strong too suddenly without any particular reason other than "she exerted her will and unlocked her full potential". While it can make sense that a time mage could reach such level of epicness with enough time or with a good unlocking reason (example: getting back the half of her soul from Daeneghra could have been a good reason, that is basically why Denny chased Victoria for years...), reaching them just because she wanted it bad is very un-interesting and boring, expecially if she then returns to be a Major in the army doing a middle-rank officier duties while she is a walking demigoddess on Caen (immortality and almost omniscence I think qualify).
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 10, 2017 2:36:04 GMT
Wait a minute....Infinite timelines.......pulling bodies out of ither dimensions....fighting with yourself..... Funny Valentine? Now that would be the awesomest twist.
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Post by Aegis on Jun 10, 2017 15:46:50 GMT
An example of a plot that I would have found interesting could have been something like this:
Gaspy discovers that Denny has passed information to Haley. He enrages, strips Denny of her soul to punish her with endless tortures and performs a ritual on her body to create an even more powerful, wicked and soul-less undead warcaster (Aka Denny3).
Haley somehow is informed of that, goes in battle against Gaspy and manages to free the soul of her sister.
Since twins in caen are said to be fragment of the same soul, the bodyless soul of Gloria fuses with Victoria's soul, and that is why she manages to unlock her full potential (and that would also make things like Revive and Ghost Walk being on her more justified.)
That would also encourage a change into the character, maybe less idealistic and more pragmatic, other than renewing her hatred against cryx and the will to fight what now for her is the unholy dessacration of her sister (or her own, in a certain sense?) body.
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Post by HereComesTomorrow on Jun 10, 2017 15:55:59 GMT
I think this is what I hate the most about Haley. Giving up doesn't make you a hero. Dying doesn't save your country and your people from your evil sister. She made the choice to die instead of doing something that could help her save her friends and family. That's not noble. That's selfish. She couldn't face what she might be like, so she said screw you guys, I'm giving up. She should have died like the coward she was. Instead she found magic time lord powers that let her save herself and basically hit the reset button on her life. It's not a good story. It's a convoluted reason as to why she's still in the fluff. A better story would have been her taking the body and learning to live with her newself. It would have been a much better story about a character who couldn't even escape death and has to deal with that fact in order to save her country. Instead there was a generic deus ex Haley. If she were inside of a mechanical body, how connected to her countrymen could ahe possibly be? She'd be a robot. Her grasp on morals would fade away, because she'd lose the one thing connecting her to people, vulnerability..., and she would be indebted to enemies that she does not understand or trust. That sounds like it would have made a better character arc than what we got.
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