isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634 
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Post by isotope on May 31, 2017 20:27:02 GMT
If you're trying to hit and run, if you're trying to get through rough terrain, if you're trying to kill 2 targets not near each other, if you're trying to kill something with high defense (sustained attack), if you want more cheap throw away beasts, if you want 20 free points of fury management... All themes have the "no character jack/beast", but most other themes make you lose out on no ranged, no pathfinder, no magical attacks. I'm not the biggest fan of "spend points, get points" but we need to at least draw the line at CAs and solos with 5 or less hit boxes. It's a beast theme that makes us loose out on every single infantry model outside of ones with magic abilities. We have thus given up on the very popular Swordsmen, Warlords, Deathstalkers, Strider scouts, Raptors, Grotesques, and Grotesque assassin to name a few. So we literally have no jamming potential and little to no efficient anti-infantry. All the "eggs are in one basket" and the eggs are brittle as shit. We do have to make sacrifices. But looking in from outside the faction you are content to dismiss that. Even if that restriction was to be put in place what would that stop Oracles from bringing? The sorc & hellion? Fine I'll pay 6 and bring something else for free. Or Do you actually mean that we can't take CAs and things with 5 or less boxes? If that's what you mean then are you trying to ruin the theme structure just to hurt one list that I can just pay those 11 points for the fury management and NOTHING would change? I really am trying not to go ballistic but you are drilling one single list in one theme of one of the least popular factions in the game right now. We have one nice toy and you're mad about it? There are other themes that allow free models that have more than 5 boxes. I'd be fine with you paying to bring Hellion and get something else free, I'm totally fine with free CA and free 5 hitbox models. In my opinion Dragoons, Hellions, and other models that are 6+ points should not be free. Please, go ballistic... |
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Post by oncomingstorm on May 31, 2017 20:31:12 GMT
It's a beast theme that makes us loose out on every single infantry model outside of ones with magic abilities. We have thus given up on the very popular Swordsmen, Warlords, Deathstalkers, Strider scouts, Raptors, Grotesques, and Grotesque assassin to name a few. So we literally have no jamming potential and little to no efficient anti-infantry. All the "eggs are in one basket" and the eggs are brittle as shit. We do have to make sacrifices. But looking in from outside the faction you are content to dismiss that. Even if that restriction was to be put in place what would that stop Oracles from bringing? The sorc & hellion? Fine I'll pay 6 and bring something else for free. Or Do you actually mean that we can't take CAs and things with 5 or less boxes? If that's what you mean then are you trying to ruin the theme structure just to hurt one list that I can just pay those 11 points for the fury management and NOTHING would change? I really am trying not to go ballistic but you are drilling one single list in one theme of one of the least popular factions in the game right now. We have one nice toy and you're mad about it? There are other themes that allow free models that have more than 5 boxes. I'd be fine with you paying to bring Hellion and get something else free, I'm totally fine with free CA and free 5 hitbox models. In my opinion Dragoons, Hellions, and other models that are 6+ points should not be free. Please, go ballistic... To be fair, the Sorc and Hellion isn't worth 6 points - she didn't get taken before Oracles, and she still doesn't get taken outside of it that I'm aware of. Same goes for the Pain Knight in Defenders - he's not worth 8 points (though he's probably worth 6.) For Shadows of the Retribution, I've never gotten a free Eiryss, because you usually want Eiryss3 as a CA on something, and Narn (again) isn't worth 6 points. Number of Free points isn't always the best indicator of free value the theme gives you, though if people ARE willing to pay the points for the S+H if it were to get removed as a free model choice, that does indicate that maybe early assessments of it's value were incorrect. |
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on May 31, 2017 20:36:41 GMT
I stand by Oracles, Heavy Metal, and Jaws, and frankly, I'd say the same about any theme that allowed Circle to bring any beast/gain free points for doing so. I find your choices just very...Personally arbitrary. The more restricted the choices, the more the benefits have to be BIGGER to make up for less of a selection, especially if they are vital or important. |
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Post by oncomingstorm on May 31, 2017 20:42:02 GMT
I stand by Oracles, Heavy Metal, and Jaws, and frankly, I'd say the same about any theme that allowed Circle to bring any beast/gain free points for doing so. I find your choices just very...Personally arbitrary. The more restricted the choices, the more the benefits have to be BIGGER to make up for less of a selection, especially if they are vital or important. Yes, I agree, and when a theme lets you take everything you'd need in order to put together a viable list in theme (except for the support) and by so doing obtain the support for free, that's a problem. Themes should represent an actual choice between lists in theme and out of theme, and when you see something like Sloan in heavy metal, or Harkevich/Karchev in Jaws, it's problematic. There's no real tradeoff for playing in theme. Same goes for Storm Division, except the issue there (as you rightly pointed out) is that Storm Lances are so good that the loss of other infantry choices is fairly irrelevant. |
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on May 31, 2017 20:51:50 GMT
There's no real tradeoff for playing in theme. Well, actually there is. Before theme forces Came around every Harkevitch or Kharchev list just lugged around Ruin with them, or mercs for spell immunity, or some other combo of stuff. And nothing on the competitive scene has them doing very well with Hyper aggressive Jack Spam in jaws. Funny Enough Irusk 2 within Jaws apeared to do well with primarily an infantry focus. Go figure. On top of that Kharchev prefers Winter Guard Kommand. Im not really seeing unbalanced theme forces spamming Jacks really dominating the metas or competitive. |
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Post by octaviusmaximus on May 31, 2017 21:29:33 GMT
I stand by Oracles, Heavy Metal, and Jaws, and frankly, I'd say the same about any theme that allowed Circle to bring any beast/gain free points for doing so. I find your choices just very...Personally arbitrary. The more restricted the choices, the more the benefits have to be BIGGER to make up for less of a selection, especially if they are vital or important. I disagree with this, after thinking for it for a while, limited *model* access isn't inherently stronger or weaker than slightly limited or unlimited, but this is only true on the proviso that the models a theme has access too have general answers to a lot of meta questions. Like if a theme only gave you access to one unit, but that unit was a ranged, melee hybrid and it was ok vs jacks and infantry and thr theme granted rfp and magical. Silly idea, I know, but what it illustrates is that the limitations on models are irrelevant if the theme isn't limited by *ability*. Legion beast theme, as an example, isn't actually that limited in ability beyond lacking access to rfp, because magical and blessed and pathfinder and guns and melee are reasonably plentiful. So no, I don't agree that model limitations should have an impact on theme power, although limitations of ability *should* impact. |
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Post by jisidro on May 31, 2017 21:30:50 GMT
Aren't all jack theme lists spamming jacks? If there is a reason that 'jack spams aren't dominating the Meta you can thank Cygnar who has their own shooting jack spam and liberal sprinkling of Disruption/Domination to tear those lists apart.
Every faction will need to have their own jack/warbeast list and it's virtues will depend on the quality of the free models and the viability of the non-character warguys.
Some faction need more than 1 due to internal themes (Minions, Ret, Circle and Legion already has 3 (I think... Flying, Nephilim, Everyone). I don't believe that any theme restricting Cygnar or Khador will see play while Heavy Metal, Jaws and WG command are in play.
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Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605
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Post by Deller on Jun 1, 2017 1:56:48 GMT
Infernal machines, I think might be balanced just on virtue of the fact that Cryx doesn't want to take a lot of jacks, period, so the trade-off is a real one. Cryx doesn't have a particularly good dedicated Jack caster at the moment. Um.....what? Are we just going to pretend Venethrax doesn't exist? Or that the Skarre1 list with 7+ Stalkers wasn't a thing for a while? The issue isn't that Cryx doesn't have good Dedicated jack casters, because we do. Asphyxious3, Venethrax, & Mortenebra1 can all run a dedicated jack line no problem. The problem is 1) Cryx's noncharacter heavy jacks are by and large utter garbage and the good character heavies, Nightmare, Barathrum, & Erebus don't belong to jack casters. 2) Despite being named after Mortenebra's Mark2 theme, Infernal Machines is not a Warjack Theme, it's a Thrall theme. You get free points for taking Thrall models, your theme benefit gives ambush to a Mechanithrall unit. The only theme benefit that helps jacks is Hyper Aggressive, and it's by and large terrible on Cryx jacks. Infernal Machines does as much for Warjacks as Winter Guard Kommand or Guardians of the Temple do for Khador & Protectorate. Cryx doesn't have a Warjack theme yet. |
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jun 1, 2017 2:09:54 GMT
Infernal machines, I think might be balanced just on virtue of the fact that Cryx doesn't want to take a lot of jacks, period, so the trade-off is a real one. Cryx doesn't have a particularly good dedicated Jack caster at the moment. Um.....what? Are we just going to pretend Venethrax doesn't exist? Or that the Skarre1 list with 7+ Stalkers wasn't a thing for a while? The issue isn't that Cryx doesn't have good Dedicated jack casters, because we do. Asphyxious3, Venethrax, & Mortenebra1 can all run a dedicated jack line no problem. The problem is 1) Cryx's noncharacter heavy jacks are by and large utter garbage and the good character heavies, Nightmare, Barathrum, & Erebus don't belong to jack casters. 2) Despite being named after Mortenebra's Mark2 theme, Infernal Machines is not a Warjack Theme, it's a Thrall theme. You get free points for taking Thrall models, your theme benefit gives ambush to a Mechanithrall unit. The only theme benefit that helps jacks is Hyper Aggressive, and it's by and large terrible on Cryx jacks. Infernal Machines does as much for Warjacks as Winter Guard Kommand or Guardians of the Temple do for Khador & Protectorate. Cryx doesn't have a Warjack theme yet. Pretending venethrax doesn't exist is probably for the best, tbh. Also, saying that a theme isn't a jack theme because only 1 quarter of its benefits work on jacks means that heavy metal isn't a jack theme because it only gets free points for jacks, but nothing else works on them. I mean, Cryx jacks suck, it's just not a very good argument |
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 1, 2017 2:17:15 GMT
I think what PPs problem was that I think they really shouldn't have released themes until they were ready.
What I mean by that is that some themes, of course, depend on unreleased elements to make them "Whole". And that the "Jack" themes should not have been released until the other themes where complete.
As much as that would have maybe spoiled some fun, in the long run, it would be healthier.
At the moment a themes viability depends mostly on if it's based on something good or not.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on Jun 1, 2017 2:53:19 GMT
I think what PPs problem was that I think they really shouldn't have released themes until they were ready. What I mean by that is that some themes, of course, depend on unreleased elements to make them "Whole". And that the "Jack" themes should not have been released until the other themes where complete. As much as that would have maybe spoiled some fun, in the long run, it would be healthier. At the moment a themes viability depends mostly on if it's based on something good or not. That idea can apply to anything, shouldnt release Caine 3 till they fix Haley 2. Shouldn't release brickhouse till they fix ace. If they didn't release themes there would be consternation that things that are good in theme but bad outside of it need to be fixed. Lancers are ok, but never taken outside of theme because thorn is better. There is now a reason to bring a lancer. But what about whether they weren't allowed to release a theme until they fixed the thing the theme would fix? Doesn't that make their release never happen? It becomes a paradox. |
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Jun 1, 2017 2:57:27 GMT
Doesn't that make their release never happen? It becomes a paradox. Good point. I just want the salt TORRENT to stop. We fight on occasion, but we generally agree on 99% of things. And I like salt. Salt is necessary for improvements. But I hate directionless whining salt. PP doesn't improve things fast enough, or too much, or not enough, or it listens to whining, or it doesn't listen. Or is too greedy, or is too tepid. The worst part is that there is usually no listed example. |
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Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605
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Post by Deller on Jun 1, 2017 3:09:57 GMT
Um.....what? Are we just going to pretend Venethrax doesn't exist? Or that the Skarre1 list with 7+ Stalkers wasn't a thing for a while? The issue isn't that Cryx doesn't have good Dedicated jack casters, because we do. Asphyxious3, Venethrax, & Mortenebra1 can all run a dedicated jack line no problem. The problem is 1) Cryx's noncharacter heavy jacks are by and large utter garbage and the good character heavies, Nightmare, Barathrum, & Erebus don't belong to jack casters. 2) Despite being named after Mortenebra's Mark2 theme, Infernal Machines is not a Warjack Theme, it's a Thrall theme. You get free points for taking Thrall models, your theme benefit gives ambush to a Mechanithrall unit. The only theme benefit that helps jacks is Hyper Aggressive, and it's by and large terrible on Cryx jacks. Infernal Machines does as much for Warjacks as Winter Guard Kommand or Guardians of the Temple do for Khador & Protectorate. Cryx doesn't have a Warjack theme yet. Pretending venethrax doesn't exist is probably for the best, tbh. Also, saying that a theme isn't a jack theme because only 1 quarter of its benefits work on jacks means that heavy metal isn't a jack theme because it only gets free points for jacks, but nothing else works on them. I mean, Cryx jacks suck, it's just not a very good argument 1) Last I checked your Warjacks get to deploy 2" forward as well, so that's 2/3 benefits that work on jacks. 2) WTF else is Heavy Metal going to take other than warjacks. The only unit allowed in the list is Sword Knights which at most are going to take up 34 points and the only theme benefit they get is the deployment Please tell me how Infernal Machines is any more a jack theme than Winter Guard Kommand? The theme asks me to take thralls, and rewards me for taking thralls. I can easily use the theme and bring 75+ free points worth of Thralls. Meanwhile if try to do what every Jack/Beast theme does and bring 100+ points of Warjacks I get Hyper Aggressive on everything and nothing else. Unless I need Deathjack or Malice I'm probably better off just playing that list in Ghost Fleet for the +1 to go first or Dark Host for the Clouds. Meanwhile Heavy Metal can bring 100+ points of jacks, deploy 2" forward, get 4 free solos, & the free solos you took get reposition. A Warjack theme rewards you for bringing Warjacks; Heavy Metal, Forges of War, & Creator's Might can all take nothing but Warjacks and get use out of every one of its benefits. Infernal Machines can't do this because it's not a jack theme, it's a thrall theme. |
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Post by oncomingstorm on Jun 1, 2017 5:54:53 GMT
I think what PPs problem was that I think they really shouldn't have released themes until they were ready. What I mean by that is that some themes, of course, depend on unreleased elements to make them "Whole". And that the "Jack" themes should not have been released until the other themes where complete. As much as that would have maybe spoiled some fun, in the long run, it would be healthier. At the moment a themes viability depends mostly on if it's based on something good or not. That idea can apply to anything, shouldnt release Caine 3 till they fix Haley 2. Shouldn't release brickhouse till they fix ace. If they didn't release themes there would be consternation that things that are good in theme but bad outside of it need to be fixed. Lancers are ok, but never taken outside of theme because thorn is better. There is now a reason to bring a lancer. But what about whether they weren't allowed to release a theme until they fixed the thing the theme would fix? Doesn't that make their release never happen? It becomes a paradox. Yes and No. What should have happened was they shouldn't have released Mk3 until it was fully balanced, including an open Beta, and (if themes were going to be so integral to balance) several themes for each faction, available immediately on release. They're doing the open beta now anyways, and it's painfully obvious that several factions were rushed out the door unfinished. It's also obvious that some factions (or aspects of factions) are desperately awaiting themes to make them playable, or (conversely) that certain themes are waiting on future releases to become viable. That ship has sailed, so yes, the options are more limited. I firmly believe, though, that they should be devoting more energy to fixing the unpolished factions they released, ASAP. |
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Post by Gamingdevil on Jun 1, 2017 7:39:29 GMT
1) Last I checked your Warjacks get to deploy 2" forward as well, so that's 2/3 benefits that work on jacks. 2) WTF else is Heavy Metal going to take other than warjacks. The only unit allowed in the list is Sword Knights which at most are going to take up 34 points and the only theme benefit they get is the deployment Please tell me how Infernal Machines is any more a jack theme than Winter Guard Kommand? The theme asks me to take thralls, and rewards me for taking thralls. I can easily use the theme and bring 75+ free points worth of Thralls. Meanwhile if try to do what every Jack/Beast theme does and bring 100+ points of Warjacks I get Hyper Aggressive on everything and nothing else. Unless I need Deathjack or Malice I'm probably better off just playing that list in Ghost Fleet for the +1 to go first or Dark Host for the Clouds. Meanwhile Heavy Metal can bring 100+ points of jacks, deploy 2" forward, get 4 free solos, & the free solos you took get reposition. A Warjack theme rewards you for bringing Warjacks; Heavy Metal, Forges of War, & Creator's Might can all take nothing but Warjacks and get use out of every one of its benefits. Infernal Machines can't do this because it's not a jack theme, it's a thrall theme. This pretty much. The main one being that you actually get the free points for Thralls. I literally just tried to make an Infernal Machines list with a bunch of Seethers and Inflictors based on what was said here. It's cute, but it has no support at all, as the free Sirens require me to take 20 points of chaff that has no business in the list. Same with the Iron Lich Overseer, which means I don't get to have Dark Shroud in the lists. This is what has always happened for me when I tried to make IM lists: you kind of want to take jacks for the Hyper Aggressive, but you don't get anything for doing that, besides that, Hyper Aggressive isn't actually that great, especially if it's not spammable. So you focus more on Thralls instead, who need a lot of help to get work done. So you take some more jacks to actually get the use the benefit a little, as well as having an actual use for the free Sirens and ILOs and you end up with a mish-mash that is sometimes fun to play, but not that great. Spamming Thralls is actually the way to go, but meh. I agree that Ghost Fleet and Dark Host are better for all jack armies. Deathjack and Malice also feel shoehorned into IM, because they wanted to put them somewhere. But they're both expensive and detract too much from the actual focus of the them, Thralls. |
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