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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on May 31, 2017 14:59:39 GMT
I wonder if the Blood pack could drop assault and heart eater, keep the price tag, but gain brutal damage bows? I think that would be fantastic. Boosted pow 13s from the other side of a forest! Yes the Tharn theme is cool. But the only "viable" infantry to take and give heart tokens to is the death wolves who are not even real Tharn. Please check you Tharn privilege good sir! if the Death Wolves self identify as Tharn then who are you to say they are not?
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on May 31, 2017 15:01:46 GMT
The issue with the tharn theme is the tharn themselves. The theme benefits are actually pretty good. Tharn need a unit by unit overhaul if they want that theme to work. Blood pack, ravagers, wolf riders, they all are meh or absolute trash. That leaves you with Bloodtrackers and weavers (which i actually think are good for their points.) and they have no staying power. If ravagers gained Brutal Charge and blood pack gained prey (and a points decrease) then I think I would consider the theme more. And yet we have a local Circle player who is doing really well with Kruegar1 in the Tharn theme. It's even being considered by WTC players as part of their pairing.
It's hard to criticize these themes when people have barely tried them,
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Post by ForEver_Blight on May 31, 2017 15:02:03 GMT
only free upkeeps that are already out on turn one. After that you pay as normal. Everything you listed could be done without the theme to begin with. It's just the free points that let you do it easier. Same could be said of many themes. I will continue to say that i do not like the "free points" bonuses of themes. The upkeeps out on turn 1 helps you deploy your beasts further from your caster. I don't think that you can call a theme list "restrictive" when it allows you to bring every single support model you would possibly want. I didn't say it was restrictive. But in terms of infantry it is. I would think that the upkeep utility would be a seen as a worthwhile and not-game-breaking bonus. Again, in regards to the support, that could be said of many of the theme lists. That seems to be the intention of all theme lists. It just so happens that a Single caster with a single list build takes full advantage of it.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on May 31, 2017 15:06:27 GMT
The issue with the tharn theme is the tharn themselves. The theme benefits are actually pretty good. Tharn need a unit by unit overhaul if they want that theme to work. Blood pack, ravagers, wolf riders, they all are meh or absolute trash. That leaves you with Bloodtrackers and weavers (which i actually think are good for their points.) and they have no staying power. If ravagers gained Brutal Charge and blood pack gained prey (and a points decrease) then I think I would consider the theme more. And yet we have a local Circle player who is doing really well with Kruegar1 in the Tharn theme. It's even being considered by WTC players as part of their pairing.
It's hard to criticize these themes when people have barely tried them,
I would say that we are past the stage of "barely tried them". It just might be that he has stumbled on that perfect recipe and others have not. I'm still convinced with my success in the Children of the Dragon theme. But that doesn't mean I can't see the list of shortcomings the them has.
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isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
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Post by isotope on May 31, 2017 15:11:59 GMT
The upkeeps out on turn 1 helps you deploy your beasts further from your caster. I don't think that you can call a theme list "restrictive" when it allows you to bring every single support model you would possibly want. I didn't say it was restrictive. But in terms of infantry it is. I would think that the upkeep utility would be a seen as a worthwhile and not-game-breaking bonus. Again, in regards to the support, that could be said of many of the theme lists. That seems to be the intention of all theme lists. It just so happens that a Single caster with a single list build takes full advantage of it. So it restricts a model type not taken in the prevalent lists? You don't need a unit when you can have 5+ fully supported flying heavies and all the fury management you could ever need.
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Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605
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Post by Deller on May 31, 2017 15:29:10 GMT
Cryx: Ghost fleet - I am not buying 3 boxes of dead pirates. But seems to put up a ridiculous good fight. Infernal Machine - as soon as I get my units of Carrion thralls together I'm running this theme down people's throats. Banes (CID) - Did you want obnoxiously powerful Banes? Cuz this is how you get Banes. So unbelievably good along with the CID changes. (if they all stick) I've played Infernal Machines a few times, but am not a huge fan of it. It does work, but it tries to encourage you to take a mix of thralls and jacks, which is actually horribly ineffective; Thralls themselves are rather lackluster and only the expensive jacks in Cryx are effective, so splitting points between the two gives you to worst of both worlds. There are some fun lists out there though; Aiakos is pretty cool in it for instance. Interestingly enough, neither Ghost Fleet and Dark Host try to make you take jacks and they're both solid. On topic: I don't really mind themes in and of themselves, but I do mind them as a way to balance otherwise bad models. Hardly anyone ever played Revenants outside of theme, but they're the bees knees in theme (obviously, because you can't take anything else). Something should be valid both in and out of theme, not "it's fine, because it's at least usable in theme". EDIT: I also prefer out of theme at least being viable, because diversity in lists is more fun. Especially since none of the themes allow any Mercenaries/Minions, that results in a lot of shelf warmers by default if themes become the norm. Right now out of theme is still viable, but I hope it stays that way, maybe with some incentives to not play in a particular theme, like 1 free solo or something. I doubt that last one is going to happen. IMO Ghost Fleet & Dark Host are themes you build around, Infernal Machines isn't unless you're going the Goreshade2 or Terminus all the Brute Thralls list, but that's always existed and saw no play because nobody in this hobby has the cash to spend on that many Brute Thralls. Infernal Machines is a theme that you look at after building a nontheme list and go, does my list fit this theme and if no, how much effort would I need to put to make it fit. So a list like the Skarre1 list here www.discountgamesinc.com/tournaments/players/view/1381. With CID allowing Wraith Engines in IM the only thing in that Skarre1 list not legal in IM are Blackbanes. So the question you now ask yourself is what's better Blackbane's or 17 points of Thralls + a free solo + the two IM benefits. Theres a lot of Cryx lists that just naturally fit into Infernal Machines and can use their benefits. Coven, Venethrax, Skarre1, & Mortenebra1 have a lot of nontheme builds where they'd only need to take out a single unit or character Jack to gain the theme benefits. Sometimes it might be worth it, other times it's not. I think that's an okay place for a theme force to be in though.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on May 31, 2017 15:31:21 GMT
I didn't say it was restrictive. But in terms of infantry it is. I would think that the upkeep utility would be a seen as a worthwhile and not-game-breaking bonus. Again, in regards to the support, that could be said of many of the theme lists. That seems to be the intention of all theme lists. It just so happens that a Single caster with a single list build takes full advantage of it. So it restricts a model type not taken in the prevalent lists? You don't need a unit when you can have 5+ fully supported flying heavies and all the fury management you could ever need. You're getting a bit pedantic. Hex hunters are good, Black frost shard are good, Sorc & Hellion are good. They are all viable options that can and are taken on their merit, not just because of the theme. Fury Management is OUR THEME and it got nerfed hard like everyone else's. You could argue welps are a way better option. Hell I argue that beast handlers are better because of the fantastic bonuses they hand out. Forsaken are far from "all I'll ever need" if I were to play a beast heavy list. Should we rehash the argument of Storm division? Or add in some new ones? Power of Dhunia? Creators Might? Destruction Initiative? Forge of War? These are all Jack/Beast specific themes that let you take support models for free. You've obviously gotten riled up by this on specific list and I can't do anything about that. If you'd like some tips or go over some counter-strategy maybe I can help.
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Post by jisidro on May 31, 2017 15:32:14 GMT
The issue with the tharn theme is the tharn themselves. The theme benefits are actually pretty good. Tharn need a unit by unit overhaul if they want that theme to work. Blood pack, ravagers, wolf riders, they all are meh or absolute trash. That leaves you with Bloodtrackers and weavers (which i actually think are good for their points.) and they have no staying power. If ravagers gained Brutal Charge and blood pack gained prey (and a points decrease) then I think I would consider the theme more. And yet we have a local Circle player who is doing really well with Kruegar1 in the Tharn theme. It's even being considered by WTC players as part of their pairing.
It's hard to criticize these themes when people have barely tried them,
I defewnded this and played it a few times in tournaments. It's 69pts of tharns+Death Wolves and the rest in beasts. Tries to DEF skew against gunlines. This was before Heavy Metal and Jaws. It cannot handle ARM/Box spam due to Tharn POW 13 max.
If subthemes are the way PP wants to go then themes/factions need a lot more solutions than they have now. Tharns don't have support and somehow they are lijmited to living warbeasts... It's a limitation direct from MK2 theme lists and narrows down the possible lists even further. The Corpse token gimmick is cool but further narrows down the Tharn to male tharn since the chicks are vegetarian... Death Wolves need to add up to the theme, constructs need to be in it, Wilder is a must if PP wants it to see the table ever and Blackclads would be very welcome.
Oh, yes, in general themes needs revision with each release. Static MK2 themes gave us gems like Jarl not taking Highwaymen in his theme... Let's not go there again.
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Post by jisidro on May 31, 2017 15:37:19 GMT
@forever_Blight: Fury Management if Legion's theme? Does PP know this?
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isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
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Post by isotope on May 31, 2017 15:46:09 GMT
So it restricts a model type not taken in the prevalent lists? You don't need a unit when you can have 5+ fully supported flying heavies and all the fury management you could ever need. You're getting a bit pedantic. Hex hunters are good, Black frost shard are good, Sorc & Hellion are good. They are all viable options that can and are taken on their merit, not just because of the theme. Fury Management is OUR THEME and it got nerfed hard like everyone else's. You could argue welps are a way better option. Hell I argue that beast handlers are better because of the fantastic bonuses they hand out. Forsaken are far from "all I'll ever need" if I were to play a beast heavy list. Should we rehash the argument of Storm division? Or add in some new ones? Power of Dhunia? Creators Might? Destruction Initiative? Forge of War? These are all Jack/Beast specific themes that let you take support models for free. You've obviously gotten riled up by this on specific list and I can't do anything about that. If you'd like some tips or go over some counter-strategy maybe I can help. If it was just forsaken or just shepherds maybe it would be more manageable. But it's shepherds, forsaken AND Hellions. You can literally max out every beast in the list every single turn. Themes need to have something that makes the person taking the list say " is it worth losing out on X if I go in theme", currently beast heavy oracles does not ask the question of the person taking it... just "how many free points do I get for taking exactly what I'd want to take anyways"
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Post by copperflame on May 31, 2017 15:48:48 GMT
only free upkeeps that are already out on turn one. After that you pay as normal. Everything you listed could be done without the theme to begin with. It's just the free points that let you do it easier. Same could be said of many themes. I will continue to say that i do not like the "free points" bonuses of themes. The upkeeps out on turn 1 helps you deploy your beasts further from your caster. I don't think that you can call a theme list "restrictive" when it allows you to bring every single support model you would possibly want.
I find OoA very restrictive with Fyanna - but I'm not a good player. I want to run some infantry with her (swordmen/raptors) with a BlightBringer, sprinkle in Anglii/Raeks after that and cram whatever you have left for support.
But I don't think anyone is saying anything contradictory - the free points for support models makes OoA the first choice. You can pick something else, as always, but you better have a good reason to pass up all those free points. I have never invested in S+H, 6 points was still too much for what she did. But 0... well, that's one hell of a bargain!
PP stated that a goal with MK3 is that all models should be usable (so you didn't need a theme to be able to play... say... Afflictors). Even the old argument with themes was why not just boost the models that are considered trash and get rid of themes. Now - I'm passing up models that don't fit in the ONE theme that rules the faction that I play yet I don't want to buy models that only work in ONE theme.
I believe PP has blatantly stated that themes are how they want the game to be played. I don't understand this reasoning fully yet - or maybe it is because I think there is danger around chasing 'the new hotness' ploy that other game systems have used in the past to drive revenue.
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Post by macdaddy on May 31, 2017 15:49:18 GMT
The issue with the tharn theme is the tharn themselves. The theme benefits are actually pretty good. Tharn need a unit by unit overhaul if they want that theme to work. Blood pack, ravagers, wolf riders, they all are meh or absolute trash. That leaves you with Bloodtrackers and weavers (which i actually think are good for their points.) and they have no staying power. If ravagers gained Brutal Charge and blood pack gained prey (and a points decrease) then I think I would consider the theme more. And yet we have a local Circle player who is doing really well with Kruegar1 in the Tharn theme. It's even being considered by WTC players as part of their pairing.
It's hard to criticize these themes when people have barely tried them,
one players success doesn't make the theme good. It just means he has found a niche for it. Isn't WTC 3 list format as well? I could see it being a 3rd list choice. I said the theme wasn't the issue, it was the tharn you mind sharing what the kruger 1 player plays the tharn list into? Id love to see it in action because I cant wrap my head around how it works. (def 16/17 from shooting is cool but eleaps and blast damage still tear through them or storm lances...) yeah I haven't tried the theme (at least not the optimized version) I have a limited selection of tharn and my focus is wolds. But I have used tharn models and the male tharn and wolf riders just stink. (I proxied the wolf riders) Some guy posted a bug thread about him being pretty successful with the theme as well (think it was krueger 2 though) I'm just not convinced yet. My meta also has lots of armor and jacks everywhere too so Its also probably just not the right fit for my current meta. In a two list pairing I just feel like I am really opening myself up more to bad match ups with it. I don't doubt it can work, I just don't see it working in the typical tourneys I go to.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on May 31, 2017 15:55:00 GMT
@forever_Blight: Fury Management if Legion's theme? Does PP know this? MK2 was a thing. Please count the fury management options in other factions and get back to me. We have models designed for it. We have been a beast focused theme. We have a low average fury stat casters. We have to manage our fury carefully. But please take my generalizations more specifically.
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Post by copperflame on May 31, 2017 15:59:09 GMT
@forever_Blight: Fury Management if Legion's theme? Does PP know this? I think they do - I wasn't alone when I felt somewhat alienated with the transition to MK3 where I invested in a faction that was all about the dragon-beast-monstrosities and no longer the ability to really run what the faction was core was.
Or at least in my opinion, OoA feels like an answer to 'if you want to run beast heavy - use this' with the restriction 'you can't run character warbeasts'
Again - my opinion.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on May 31, 2017 16:00:43 GMT
You're getting a bit pedantic. Hex hunters are good, Black frost shard are good, Sorc & Hellion are good. They are all viable options that can and are taken on their merit, not just because of the theme. Fury Management is OUR THEME and it got nerfed hard like everyone else's. You could argue welps are a way better option. Hell I argue that beast handlers are better because of the fantastic bonuses they hand out. Forsaken are far from "all I'll ever need" if I were to play a beast heavy list. Should we rehash the argument of Storm division? Or add in some new ones? Power of Dhunia? Creators Might? Destruction Initiative? Forge of War? These are all Jack/Beast specific themes that let you take support models for free. You've obviously gotten riled up by this on specific list and I can't do anything about that. If you'd like some tips or go over some counter-strategy maybe I can help. If it was just forsaken or just shepherds maybe it would be more manageable. But it's shepherds, forsaken AND Hellions. You can literally max out every beast in the list every single turn. Themes need to have something that makes the person taking the list say " is it worth losing out on X if I go in theme", currently beast heavy oracles does not ask the question of the person taking it... just "how many free points do I get for taking exactly what I'd want to take anyways" Sorry. How dare I have a way to run my beasts. When Power up, higher average focus casters, and empower are now a staple in warmachine. You're set in your belief that having to pay all of our bonus points on support mechanics is too powerful. Don't expect it to change. We have one single theme that can remotely compete, and we're the villain. I guess I need to pick up a more balanced faction Like Khador or Cygnar and stop playing broken OP Legion.
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