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Post by Azuresun on Jun 1, 2017 8:24:49 GMT
As a Mercenary player, it would be really nice to have a "spam jacks" theme so I can get free stuff for Magnus2 or Montador. Unfortunately, we seem to be cursed to have themes that are actually more thematic and limited than "uh....sometimes warcasters take lots of jacks, I guess".
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on Jun 1, 2017 9:13:59 GMT
themes that are actually more thematicIn fact, I'd say you have the only real theme force if we define theme force as "list that allows you to represent fluff in a way you couldn't without it".
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Post by oncomingstorm on Jun 1, 2017 9:38:32 GMT
themes that are actually more thematicIn fact, I'd say you have the only real theme force if we define theme force as "list that allows you to represent fluff in a way you couldn't without it". I agree, actually. I had a very positive reaction on first seeing Kingmaker, because it seemed like an interesting option in terms of list building, without being obviously overpowered in a linear fashion. It's limited in terms of the Warcasters it can take on a thematic basic, not just a keyword basis, and it lets you take options you couldn't access out of theme. I mean, forget balance, the themes lately have been very...boring. Take X points of Y type of unit, get free Y type UA/Solo. random benefit 1 with in game effect, random benefit 2 that gives a special rule to a unit. No caster restrictions. It's all very formulaic, and it screams spam from the get go. I'm really starting to hate the concept of themes... Deller - I'll admit that I had a brainfart moment and thought infernal machines gave free stuff for Warjacks, not thralls (why is Infernal MACHINES the thrall theme, anyway?!) Yeah, it's a fine theme. Not overpowered in the slightest. I really dislike themes that give free points for spamming already spammable models, which is at the heart of my dislike for Heavy Metal, Jaws, and Oracles.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jun 1, 2017 9:55:09 GMT
Deller - I'll admit that I had a brainfart moment and thought infernal machines gave free stuff for Warjacks, not thralls (why is Infernal MACHINES the thrall theme, anyway?!) Yeah, it's a fine theme. Not overpowered in the slightest. I really dislike themes that give free points for spamming already spammable models, which is at the heart of my dislike for Heavy Metal, Jaws, and Oracles. *tin foil hat on* spam is a deliberate design choice, PP gotta make those sweet sweet dollars *tin foil hat off*
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Post by pangurban on Jun 1, 2017 9:55:26 GMT
In fact, I'd say you have the only real theme force if we define theme force as "list that allows you to represent fluff in a way you couldn't without it". I agree, actually. I had a very positive reaction on first seeing Kingmaker, because it seemed like an interesting option in terms of list building, without being obviously overpowered in a linear fashion. It's limited in terms of the Warcasters it can take on a thematic basic, not just a keyword basis, and it lets you take options you couldn't access out of theme. I mean, forget balance, the themes lately have been very...boring. Take X points of Y type of unit, get free Y type UA/Solo. random benefit 1 with in game effect, random benefit 2 that gives a special rule to a unit. No caster restrictions. It's all very formulaic, and it screams spam from the get go. I'm really starting to hate the concept of themes... Deller - I'll admit that I had a brainfart moment and thought infernal machines gave free stuff for Warjacks, not thralls (why is Infernal MACHINES the thrall theme, anyway?!) Yeah, it's a fine theme. Not overpowered in the slightest. I really dislike themes that give free points for spamming already spammable models, which is at the heart of my dislike for Heavy Metal, Jaws, and Oracles. Legion basically can't spam beasts. Three of the same is really the most you ever see, because spamming a single beast beyond that is seriously non-efficient. With the exception of the occasional handful of Chargers, I don't see anyone spam a specific jack in Heavy Metal either. Jaws, maybe, but in my experience it's still a minority of cases. How bad is this really, objectively speaking?
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Post by pangurban on Jun 1, 2017 9:58:54 GMT
Deller - I'll admit that I had a brainfart moment and thought infernal machines gave free stuff for Warjacks, not thralls (why is Infernal MACHINES the thrall theme, anyway?!) Yeah, it's a fine theme. Not overpowered in the slightest. I really dislike themes that give free points for spamming already spammable models, which is at the heart of my dislike for Heavy Metal, Jaws, and Oracles. *tin foil hat on* spam is a deliberate design choice, PP gotta make those sweet sweet dollars *tin foil hat off* Themes are good for PP's bottom line, because they encourage playing lists with little overlap. Spamming battlegroup models encourages overlap. Overlap is not good for PP's bottom line. It's ok to be aware that companies have strategies to make more money, but that doesn't mean you should be looking for nefarious purposes behind everything.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jun 1, 2017 10:08:52 GMT
*tin foil hat on* spam is a deliberate design choice, PP gotta make those sweet sweet dollars *tin foil hat off* Themes are good for PP's bottom line, because they encourage playing lists with little overlap. Spamming battlegroup models encourages overlap. Overlap is not good for PP's bottom line. It's ok to be aware that companies have strategies to make more money, but that doesn't mean you should be looking for nefarious purposes behind everything. *puts hat back on* wake up sheeple! Themes cannot melt steel beams, Wold War, Mad Dogs, Scarsfell, we have seen what the PP illuminate will do to sell lots of one model *keeps the hat on for now*
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Jun 1, 2017 12:55:40 GMT
Deller - I'll admit that I had a brainfart moment and thought infernal machines gave free stuff for Warjacks, not thralls (why is Infernal MACHINES the thrall theme, anyway?!) Yeah, it's a fine theme. Not overpowered in the slightest. I really dislike themes that give free points for spamming already spammable models, which is at the heart of my dislike for Heavy Metal, Jaws, and Oracles. I really implore anyone who thinks Oracles is broken to ask the Legion player to let them play their list outside of theme and see just how crap it is. Then play in theme and see that it's only really just "functional" with the best theme we have. The Power difference is severe comparing out of theme to in theme. You have to realize just how far down we start before we add something that raises the "power" of our army.
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isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
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Post by isotope on Jun 1, 2017 13:03:45 GMT
Deller - I'll admit that I had a brainfart moment and thought infernal machines gave free stuff for Warjacks, not thralls (why is Infernal MACHINES the thrall theme, anyway?!) Yeah, it's a fine theme. Not overpowered in the slightest. I really dislike themes that give free points for spamming already spammable models, which is at the heart of my dislike for Heavy Metal, Jaws, and Oracles. I really implore anyone who thinks Oracles is broken to ask the Legion player to let them play their list outside of theme and see just how crap it is. Then play in theme and see that it's only really just "functional" with the best theme we have. The Power difference is severe comparing out of theme to in theme. You have to realize just how far down we start before we add something that raises the "power" of our army. I don't think anyone has said "take Oracles away". You are being very hostile for someone who "doesn't play it". I think we are all just saying that it needs to be toned down a little bit in the amount of free points or the options available to you in theme ( maybe lose forsakens?).
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Jun 1, 2017 13:29:19 GMT
I really implore anyone who thinks Oracles is broken to ask the Legion player to let them play their list outside of theme and see just how crap it is. Then play in theme and see that it's only really just "functional" with the best theme we have. The Power difference is severe comparing out of theme to in theme. You have to realize just how far down we start before we add something that raises the "power" of our army. I don't think anyone has said "take Oracles away". You are being very hostile for someone who "doesn't play it". I think we are all just saying that it needs to be toned down a little bit in the amount of free points or the options available to you in theme ( maybe lose forsakens?). I certainly don't think "We are all" Saying anything.
The list is fine. It's still not ruling the meta, it's a strong option , which at best puts the factions slightly below Cygnar, Cryx and Khador currently.
I know when people lose to stuff, that their first reactions is to ask for nerfs, but sometimes you just need to adapt your lists and practice the matchup.
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Post by elladan52 on Jun 1, 2017 13:29:24 GMT
Easy way to reduce free points: make Sorceress & Helion 1-2 pts cheaper.
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isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
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Post by isotope on Jun 1, 2017 13:45:48 GMT
I don't think anyone has said "take Oracles away". You are being very hostile for someone who "doesn't play it". I think we are all just saying that it needs to be toned down a little bit in the amount of free points or the options available to you in theme ( maybe lose forsakens?). I certainly don't think "We are all" Saying anything.
The list is fine. It's still not ruling the meta, it's a strong option , which at best puts the factions slightly below Cygnar, Cryx and Khador currently.
I know when people lose to stuff, that their first reactions is to ask for nerfs, but sometimes you just need to adapt your lists and practice the matchup.
It's not a matter of losing to it, it's that the list lacks any weakness. Taking away a method of fury management ( like forsakens) would incentivize the person playing the list to either run less beasts and take at least 1 unit or not run so hot every turn. They would still have free charges and shepherds to manage fury but they wouldn't be able to max out 5 heavies in a turn without having at least some fury issues.
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Post by Korianneder on Jun 1, 2017 13:46:30 GMT
Easy way to reduce free points: make Sorceress & Helion 1-2 pts cheaper. Same thing with forsaken. They're overcosted at 4 points.
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Jun 1, 2017 13:54:24 GMT
I certainly don't think "We are all" Saying anything.
The list is fine. It's still not ruling the meta, it's a strong option , which at best puts the factions slightly below Cygnar, Cryx and Khador currently.
I know when people lose to stuff, that their first reactions is to ask for nerfs, but sometimes you just need to adapt your lists and practice the matchup.
It's not a matter of losing to it, it's that the list lacks any weakness. Taking away a method of fury management ( like forsakens) would incentivize the person playing the list to either run less beasts and take at least 1 unit or not run so hot every turn. They would still have free charges and shepherds to manage fury but they wouldn't be able to max out 5 heavies in a turn without having at least some fury issues. The list most certainly does have weaknesses. It gets wrecked by Doomy3 for example.
Any caster that can solve the def and not lose everything against it on the alpha will be fine.
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Post by pangurban on Jun 1, 2017 13:58:16 GMT
I certainly don't think "We are all" Saying anything.
The list is fine. It's still not ruling the meta, it's a strong option , which at best puts the factions slightly below Cygnar, Cryx and Khador currently.
I know when people lose to stuff, that their first reactions is to ask for nerfs, but sometimes you just need to adapt your lists and practice the matchup.
It's not a matter of losing to it, it's that the list lacks any weakness. Taking away a method of fury management ( like forsakens) would incentivize the person playing the list to either run less beasts and take at least 1 unit or not run so hot every turn. They would still have free charges and shepherds to manage fury but they wouldn't be able to max out 5 heavies in a turn without having at least some fury issues. No weaknesses? The attack volume is low, the beasts are glass cannons and magical attacks have to come from the support models or from taking a Naga. And none of the models you pay for are actually cheap. I'd imagine a list without weaknesses a little bit differently.
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