isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
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Post by isotope on May 31, 2017 16:09:44 GMT
If it was just forsaken or just shepherds maybe it would be more manageable. But it's shepherds, forsaken AND Hellions. You can literally max out every beast in the list every single turn. Themes need to have something that makes the person taking the list say " is it worth losing out on X if I go in theme", currently beast heavy oracles does not ask the question of the person taking it... just "how many free points do I get for taking exactly what I'd want to take anyways" Sorry. How dare I have a way to run my beasts. When Power up, higher average focus casters, and empower are now a staple in warmachine. You're set in your belief that having to pay all of our bonus points on support mechanics is too powerful. Don't expect it to change. We have one single theme that can remotely compete, and we're the villain. I guess I need to pick up a more balanced faction Like Khador or Cygnar and stop playing broken OP Legion. Calm down man. So you are saying Fyanna2 Oracles is 100% perfectly fair and balanced as is?
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Post by ForEver_Blight on May 31, 2017 16:31:37 GMT
Calm down man. So you are saying Fyanna2 Oracles is 100% perfectly fair and balanced as is? No, our beasts are too freaking expensive. Granted what you are targeting are Neraphs, Seraphs, and Angelius. But still 2 out of those 3 cost way to much to do way too little. The Neraph is the only good, cost efficient, beast we have. Even then it's only gotten popular being spammed in Oracles under Fyanna. No where else. There is nothing about the list or the theme that prevents counter play. There are combinations where you can get crazy high accuracy or just ignore Def all together. Doppler bark is a really annoying one. They're not immune to stationary. Armor/box Skews are even more popular. Neraphs fall to a stiff breeze. Her defense capability is only a single turn. Her control range is crap. CMA/CRA aren't hard to come buy. There are Defense debuffs. The fury management is all victim stats. And guess who can still be knocked down? Fyanna. It can be played against. I literally do not run it because it's too straightforward and predictable.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on May 31, 2017 16:33:22 GMT
Sorry. How dare I have a way to run my beasts. When Power up, higher average focus casters, and empower are now a staple in warmachine. You're set in your belief that having to pay all of our bonus points on support mechanics is too powerful. Don't expect it to change. We have one single theme that can remotely compete, and we're the villain. I guess I need to pick up a more balanced faction Like Khador or Cygnar and stop playing broken OP Legion. Calm down man. So you are saying Fyanna2 Oracles is 100% perfectly fair and balanced as is? I have played against it being piloted by a very good player. Is it strong? Yes. Is it unacceptable? Absolutely not. Oracles is fine
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Post by jisidro on May 31, 2017 16:42:34 GMT
@forever_Blight: Fury Management if Legion's theme? Does PP know this? MK2 was a thing. Please count the fury management options in other factions and get back to me. We have models designed for it. We have been a beast focused theme. We have a low average fury stat casters. We have to manage our fury carefully. But please take my generalizations more specifically. Circle is also Beast based... Exception was Morvahnna2 in Mk2 and now there seems to be other stuff (Not a proven success so far). We did and do ok with out FURY 6/7 casters. The fact that legion could clear up to 20 fury in mk2 from the table doesn't mean it was designed with that in mind or that it still is.
Lylyth has 5 fury, Thagrosh has 7, Vayl has 7/8... Seems like a good spread over the most popular MK2 casters. With Lylyth on the low end (thank god!).
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Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605
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Post by Deller on May 31, 2017 18:26:47 GMT
Themes need to have something that makes the person taking the list say " is it worth losing out on X if I go in theme", currently beast heavy oracles does not ask the question of the person taking it... just "how many free points do I get for taking exactly what I'd want to take anyways" I have to completely disagree with this. Not being able to take Typhon, Azrael, and Deathstalkers is a major limitation. Just like losing out on Thorn is a very real restriction on nonHaley Heavy Metal, losing Discordia & Imperatus is a very real restriction on every Ret theme, and losing access to Eye of Truth is a very real restriction on Creator's Might. Before Oracles nearly every Legion list was running Typhon because he's that much better than noncharacter beast options. Now Legion players need to make a choice, do I want sweet theme benefits or do I want Typhon, and if I want both, I have to play a Thagrosh. Legit the only theme force so far I've seen where a competitive list just got stuff for free without having to think about changing anything was Amon Creator's Might, and even that had some builds that needed changing. Literally every other theme force has had to sacrifice something whether it's a character heavy that belongs to another caster, a support solo that isn't included like Ghost Fleet's lack of spell slave or Storm Division's lack of pathfinder, or Merc & Minion options like Wrong Eye, Alten, or Eiryss.
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on May 31, 2017 19:41:09 GMT
Themes need to have something that makes the person taking the list say " is it worth losing out on X if I go in theme", currently beast heavy oracles does not ask the question of the person taking it... just "how many free points do I get for taking exactly what I'd want to take anyways" I have to completely disagree with this. Not being able to take Typhon, Azrael, and Deathstalkers is a major limitation. Just like losing out on Thorn is a very real restriction on nonHaley Heavy Metal, losing Discordia & Imperatus is a very real restriction on every Ret theme, and losing access to Eye of Truth is a very real restriction on Creator's Might. Before Oracles nearly every Legion list was running Typhon because he's that much better than noncharacter beast options. Now Legion players need to make a choice, do I want sweet theme benefits or do I want Typhon, and if I want both, I have to play a Thagrosh. Legit the only theme force so far I've seen where a competitive list just got stuff for free without having to think about changing anything was Amon Creator's Might, and even that had some builds that needed changing. Literally every other theme force has had to sacrifice something whether it's a character heavy that belongs to another caster, a support solo that isn't included like Ghost Fleet's lack of spell slave or Storm Division's lack of pathfinder, or Merc & Minion options like Wrong Eye, Alten, or Eiryss. 100% spot on. People seemingly have incredibly short memories.
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isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
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Post by isotope on May 31, 2017 19:42:22 GMT
I have to completely disagree with this. Not being able to take Typhon, Azrael, and Deathstalkers is a major limitation. Just like losing out on Thorn is a very real restriction on nonHaley Heavy Metal, losing Discordia & Imperatus is a very real restriction on every Ret theme, and losing access to Eye of Truth is a very real restriction on Creator's Might. Before Oracles nearly every Legion list was running Typhon because he's that much better than noncharacter beast options. Now Legion players need to make a choice, do I want sweet theme benefits or do I want Typhon, and if I want both, I have to play a Thagrosh. Legit the only theme force so far I've seen where a competitive list just got stuff for free without having to think about changing anything was Amon Creator's Might, and even that had some builds that needed changing. Literally every other theme force has had to sacrifice something whether it's a character heavy that belongs to another caster, a support solo that isn't included like Ghost Fleet's lack of spell slave or Storm Division's lack of pathfinder, or Merc & Minion options like Wrong Eye, Alten, or Eiryss. 100% spot on. People seemingly have incredibly short memories. I don't have a short memory, I'm just aware that 2 free charging neraphs with Fury on them > Typhon.
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on May 31, 2017 19:46:56 GMT
100% spot on. People seemingly have incredibly short memories. I don't have a short memory, I'm just aware that 2 free charging neraphs with Fury on them > Typhon. It depends what you're trying to do. Also that's why it's taken. The question was not is it good, the question, is whether they are giving something to get something which they are.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on May 31, 2017 20:00:00 GMT
And I can still have those things and Typhon in the same list outside of theme. Hell I can have 2 free charging Pow 18 Neraphs and Typhon with 8 Pow 20 attacks and everything else in my list with +3str in a turn with Kryssa. That's my norm.
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isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
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Post by isotope on May 31, 2017 20:02:15 GMT
It depends what you're trying to do. If you're trying to hit and run, if you're trying to get through rough terrain, if you're trying to kill 2 targets not near each other, if you're trying to kill something with high defense (sustained attack), if you want more cheap throw away beasts, if you want 20 free points of fury management... All themes have the "no character jack/beast", but most other themes make you lose out on no ranged, no pathfinder, no magical attacks. I'm not the biggest fan of "spend points, get points" but we need to at least draw the line at CAs and solos with 5 or less hit boxes.
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Post by oncomingstorm on May 31, 2017 20:03:31 GMT
And I can still have those things and Typhon in the same list outside of theme. Hell I can have 2 free charging Pow 18 Neraphs and Typhon with 8 Pow 20 attacks and everything else in my list with +3str in a turn with Kryssa. That's my norm. But you can't get all of those things, AND free support/free upkeeps on turn one. Make no mistake, I agree with you that Legion beasts need a cost reduction and/or a buff, but Oracles is definitely on my Shit List in terms of 'themes that are waaaaay too broad for the benefit they offer,' along with Heavy Metal, Jaws of the Wolf, Storm Division, and to a lesser extent Defenders of Ios (though I don't see Ret players crutching on that quite as hard as the others, it's early days yet.)
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on May 31, 2017 20:11:09 GMT
Heavy Metal, Jaws of the Wolf, Storm Division, But not Infernal Machine or Creators Might? Because they ain't Popular. I'd say that Storm Division, in particular, is very specific in what it is, and its benefits are pretty lax overall (Just Free Points). Heavy Metal and Jaws, Infernal Machine, and Creators might are all "Jack Themed" theme forces. Very few choices of infantry, Jack Support, and the "Apex" jack are all that is allowed to be included.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on May 31, 2017 20:20:26 GMT
It depends what you're trying to do. If you're trying to hit and run, if you're trying to get through rough terrain, if you're trying to kill 2 targets not near each other, if you're trying to kill something with high defense (sustained attack), if you want more cheap throw away beasts, if you want 20 free points of fury management... All themes have the "no character jack/beast", but most other themes make you lose out on no ranged, no pathfinder, no magical attacks. I'm not the biggest fan of "spend points, get points" but we need to at least draw the line at CAs and solos with 5 or less hit boxes. It's a beast theme that makes us loose out on every single infantry model outside of ones with magic abilities. We have thus given up on the very popular Swordsmen, Warlords, Deathstalkers, Strider scouts, Raptors, Grotesques, and Grotesque assassin to name a few. So we literally have no jamming potential and little to no efficient anti-infantry. All the "eggs are in one basket" and the eggs are brittle as shit. We do have to make sacrifices. But looking in from outside the faction you are content to dismiss that. Even if that restriction was to be put in place what would that stop Oracles from bringing? The sorc & hellion? Fine I'll pay 6 and bring something else for free. Or Do you actually mean that we can't take CAs and things with 5 or less boxes? If that's what you mean then are you trying to ruin the theme structure just to hurt one list that I can just pay those 11 points for the fury management and NOTHING would change? I really am trying not to go ballistic but you are drilling one single list in one theme of one of the least popular factions in the game right now. We have one nice toy and you're mad about it?
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Post by pangurban on May 31, 2017 20:24:17 GMT
It depends what you're trying to do. If you're trying to hit and run, if you're trying to get through rough terrain, if you're trying to kill 2 targets not near each other, if you're trying to kill something with high defense (sustained attack), if you want more cheap throw away beasts, if you want 20 free points of fury management... All themes have the "no character jack/beast", but most other themes make you lose out on no ranged, no pathfinder, no magical attacks. I'm not the biggest fan of "spend points, get points" but we need to at least draw the line at CAs and solos with 5 or less hit boxes. Like Eiryss, you mean? I'm not sure why hit boxes are the ultimate indicator of what's too good.
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Post by oncomingstorm on May 31, 2017 20:24:25 GMT
Heavy Metal, Jaws of the Wolf, Storm Division, But not Infernal Machine or Creators Might? Because they ain't Popular. I'd say that Storm Division, in particular, is very specific in what it is, and its benefits are pretty lax overall (Just Free Points). Heavy Metal and Jaws, Infernal Machine, and Creators might are all "Jack Themed" theme forces. Very few choices of infantry, Jack Support, and the "Apex" jack are all that is allowed to be included. Infernal machines, I think might be balanced just on virtue of the fact that Cryx doesn't want to take a lot of jacks, period, so the trade-off is a real one. Cryx doesn't have a particularly good dedicated Jack caster at the moment. As to Menoth, we have literally 0 Menoth players in or near my Meta, so I'm always hesitant about commenting on Menoth balance issues, as I'm not familiar with them at all. And I may have been too hasty in calling Storm Division inherently problematic - the issue with that theme is probably just that Storm Lances are too good, and the theme would be balanced if Storm Lances were brought down in power. Still, I stand by Oracles, Heavy Metal, and Jaws, and frankly, I'd say the same about any theme that allowed Circle to bring any beast/gain free points for doing so.
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