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Post by flamigant on May 31, 2017 8:11:06 GMT
Let's keep this civil and constructive! I'l start to say that PoM has some themes with potential but only with very phew different casters and models/units that clearly need a CID cycle ( Exemplar's) Amon with Might's theme is a no brainer but it's a spambox list with no creativity. Temple Flameguard theme is only good with Thyra tbh. Exemplar theme list is amazing with Vinny and some others. We are still waiting for a theme that allow's kick monks and Idrians
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Post by kineath on May 31, 2017 9:01:17 GMT
In general I don't like free models. I'd say there could be more creative ways for having fun and balanced theme's
Besides that,
I would like a Circle beast theme not restricted to constructs.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on May 31, 2017 12:40:37 GMT
My 2cents... Negativity expressed is not out of anger, just pessimism. I'm not trying to argue for changes or that something is OP, yada yada yada.
Legion: Ravens - that's cure but restricted to some of the weakest damage in our faction. But would be an infantry spam nightmare. Oracles - Over used for entirely beast focused lists instead of being the thematic fluff of spell slinger models. Children of the Dragon - the rubix cube. Everyone is frustrated with it but there is a solution hidden in the puzzle that does in fact work. It's the only theme I'll play in.
Minions: Blindwater - half-hearted band-aid to not "invalidate purchases" and I'd like to see just about anything else instead.
Khador: Jaws of the wolf - Why!? Legion of Steel - All the Yes! This is as thematically appropriate and effective list I've played. Winter Guard - By the rocket's red glare... Oh, there are other WG models? ah who cares, moar rockets.
Cryx: Ghost fleet - I am not buying 3 boxes of dead pirates. But seems to put up a ridiculous good fight. Infernal Machine - as soon as I get my units of Carrion thralls together I'm running this theme down people's throats. Banes (CID) - Did you want obnoxiously powerful Banes? Cuz this is how you get Banes. So unbelievably good along with the CID changes. (if they all stick)
Circle Bones - rock solid Wofsworn - a house of cards during a tsunami. It really doesn't hold up. The free point bonus needs to be given based on beasts. Ignoring line of sight through forests is great. Wolfsworn, not so much. Tharn - a house of cards where none of the cards are the same sizes. All the tharn models try to do the same thing and yet all of them find a unique way to fail miserably.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on May 31, 2017 12:56:57 GMT
With the remarks in the latest Primecast about the Trencher theme being a sub-faction of Cygnar, my incessant banging on aboard themes being the way PP wants everyone to play has turned out to be completely right.
Don't try and resist the theme train coming down the line, it is already roaring into the station.
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Post by Gamingdevil on May 31, 2017 12:57:33 GMT
Cryx: Ghost fleet - I am not buying 3 boxes of dead pirates. But seems to put up a ridiculous good fight. Infernal Machine - as soon as I get my units of Carrion thralls together I'm running this theme down people's throats. Banes (CID) - Did you want obnoxiously powerful Banes? Cuz this is how you get Banes. So unbelievably good along with the CID changes. (if they all stick) I've played Infernal Machines a few times, but am not a huge fan of it. It does work, but it tries to encourage you to take a mix of thralls and jacks, which is actually horribly ineffective; Thralls themselves are rather lackluster and only the expensive jacks in Cryx are effective, so splitting points between the two gives you to worst of both worlds. There are some fun lists out there though; Aiakos is pretty cool in it for instance. Interestingly enough, neither Ghost Fleet and Dark Host try to make you take jacks and they're both solid. On topic: I don't really mind themes in and of themselves, but I do mind them as a way to balance otherwise bad models. Hardly anyone ever played Revenants outside of theme, but they're the bees knees in theme (obviously, because you can't take anything else). Something should be valid both in and out of theme, not "it's fine, because it's at least usable in theme". EDIT: I also prefer out of theme at least being viable, because diversity in lists is more fun. Especially since none of the themes allow any Mercenaries/Minions, that results in a lot of shelf warmers by default if themes become the norm. Right now out of theme is still viable, but I hope it stays that way, maybe with some incentives to not play in a particular theme, like 1 free solo or something. I doubt that last one is going to happen.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on May 31, 2017 13:07:55 GMT
Don't try and resist the theme train coming down the line, it is already roaring into the station. In a way I'm happy to play Skorne right now. Sure, we play 10-20 points down most of the time, but at least we can still get creative with listbuilding. I really don't like the direction this is taking. I don't want to play Venator spam. I don't want to play Cataphract spam. I don't want to play Praetorian spam. I want to play Skorne and that means all of the aforementioned models and more working together.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on May 31, 2017 13:16:13 GMT
Don't try and resist the theme train coming down the line, it is already roaring into the station. In a way I'm happy to play Skorne right now. Sure, we play 10-20 points down most of the time, but at least we can still get creative with listbuilding. I really don't like the direction this is taking. I don't want to play Venator spam. I don't want to play Cataphract spam. I don't want to play Praetorian spam. I want to play Skorne and that means all of the aforementioned models and more working together. That is the one downside I face now when I list build, The first thing I do is select Heavy Metal, I tried to make a Siege list yesterday out of theme, and I had no idea what to put in.
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on May 31, 2017 13:31:19 GMT
I think it's a huge misconception that themes quash creativity.
As a troll player we have 2 themes (and one that was in CID, but we haven't seen it's final form) We're still coming up with new and wildly different theme lists seven months on.
I think it makes you answer questions in different ways and it's kind of cool. I.e. I need my list to answer a small amount of infantry, but it's a jack/beast list. Which jack/beast best deals with infantry. You suddenly don't look at the best option, but one that is good enough, because it's in theme. In trolls we're seeing Storm and Swamp trolls for that very reason when a unit of fire eaters would have been taken before.
You have to rethink the way you build lists but the themes Ive seen offer interesting options for creativity.
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Post by macdaddy on May 31, 2017 14:01:18 GMT
From Experience Heres my opinon on the current themes:
Circle (my main faction) Bones: I actually hated this at first but have grown to love it the +2 to deployment and the ability to stack healing on durable models is awesome. I would say its an average theme and the best in circle right now. Wild Hunt: I mostly see this list with a double reeve boat or with grayle. I have alist I need to test more with kromac 2 and all beasts and one max unit of wolves of orboros with the UA for abusing Hunter and Lulz. I agree that the beast benefit make me really want to take beasts over wolf sworn. Grayle is best with this theme IMO and tanith is a close second. Tharn theme: Honestly I know people are saying they make the double ravager boat work but I cant figure it out and don't want to pay for the stuff I would need to run the list I want. I would say its best with Baldur 1 or Wurmy who doa lot for the tharn. I think it and the wild hunt are about on equal footing as far as power level goes.
Protectorate (my side faction) Guardians of the Temple: Great with thyra, can see it run by testament too for spamming souls from flame guard and getting work out of flame bringers and daughters on feat turn but I don't own the models to run it. The jack benefit seems very meh. Creators Might: Best of the themes IMO lots of casters who love it and good benefits. Repo on chior and solos is incredibly useful for keeping the safe and relevant at the same time. Exemplar Interdiction: Vindictus makes this theme fantastic. But outside of him its just meh in a lot of ways. It seems to want to encourage combined arms but you really want and need those free models. Relies way to much on your opponent killing your models in just the right way and is slow (outside of vinny) The blessed theme on the jacks would be nice if it was actually needed or wanted but it just makes the theme unfocused.
Khador: Played against a lot Winter gaurd: Rockets everywhere....never seen any variation on this list just...all the rockets and advanced moving kodiaks. Jaws: Yeah...10 jacks...and free support solos...yeah. it Sucks to play against, makes for boring games, and is predictable. Legion: I actually like this theme. Playing into it is normally fun and it seems powerful but nothing over the top from my personal experience.
Cygnar: The Storm lance theme: yeah...not much to say here always the same list, always the same game. Baldur 2 gives it the finger. Heavy metal: Pretty good, good benefits and I see lots of variety with list construction in it at my meta. Gun mage theme: wait...this one exists?
Trolls: Play against a lot: BoH: Certain casters make ti work really really well, It really should give free points for fen blades and kriel warriors too to encourage list diversity. Take down is amazing and I think some people take that for granted. Power of Dhunia: Best theme in trolls hands down lots of diversity in the lsit construction (even with such a limited stable of decent beasts) and its a blast to play against.
Minions: Blindwater theme: Cop out to make gators relevant. Honestly its a good theme but gators should have been 8 boxes base and it feels like a band aid. Pig Theme: Gunline? check, really hard hitting beast brick? check, best theme out of the two hands down.
That's all my experience with themes. I think a lot of them are OK but some stand out as either really good, or trash.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on May 31, 2017 14:03:34 GMT
I think it's a huge misconception that themes quash creativity. As a troll player we have 2 themes (and one that was in CID, but we haven't seen it's final form) We're still coming up with new and wildly different theme lists seven months on. I think it makes you answer questions in different ways and it's kind of cool. I.e. I need my list to answer a small amount of infantry, but it's a jack/beast list. Which jack/beast best deals with infantry. You suddenly don't look at the best option, but one that is good enough, because it's in theme. In trolls we're seeing Storm and Swamp trolls for that very reason when a unit of fire eaters would have been taken before. You have to rethink the way you build lists but the themes Ive seen offer interesting options for creativity. I both agree and at the same time i see it not working that way. Themes DO spark creativity. "How do I do what I want with the limited models". It also allows caster picks that aren't "the most meta" outside of themes. But on the other hand it creates a way of just shoehorning players into the same theme to get the best bonuses and the most free points. So it's literally Schrodinger's list building. I really wish, above any other change to the game, they would remove the free points mechanic and add some viable rule that affects the models directly. But still, I mostly like the idea of themes and like the strategic discussion they present... Though some themes still need serious help *cough Tharn
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Post by macdaddy on May 31, 2017 14:17:59 GMT
The issue with the tharn theme is the tharn themselves. The theme benefits are actually pretty good. Tharn need a unit by unit overhaul if they want that theme to work. Blood pack, ravagers, wolf riders, they all are meh or absolute trash. That leaves you with Bloodtrackers and weavers (which i actually think are good for their points.) and they have no staying power. If ravagers gained Brutal Charge and blood pack gained prey (and a points decrease) then I think I would consider the theme more.
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isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
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Post by isotope on May 31, 2017 14:28:59 GMT
I think oracles providing 20 free points of free charges and fury management is a little much. There is no downside to Fyanna2 Oracles. Fast, Flight, Overtake, high def, no knockdown, free charges, good spell list, fury management, strong feat, free upkeeps.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on May 31, 2017 14:51:26 GMT
I think oracles providing 20 free points of free charges and fury management is a little much. There is no downside to Fyanna2 Oracles. Fast, Flight, Overtake, high def, no knockdown, free charges, good spell list, fury management, strong feat, free upkeeps. only free upkeeps that are already out on turn one. After that you pay as normal. Everything you listed could be done without the theme to begin with. It's just the free points that let you do it easier. Same could be said of many themes. I will continue to say that i do not like the "free points" bonuses of themes.
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isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
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Post by isotope on May 31, 2017 14:55:54 GMT
I think oracles providing 20 free points of free charges and fury management is a little much. There is no downside to Fyanna2 Oracles. Fast, Flight, Overtake, high def, no knockdown, free charges, good spell list, fury management, strong feat, free upkeeps. only free upkeeps that are already out on turn one. After that you pay as normal. Everything you listed could be done without the theme to begin with. It's just the free points that let you do it easier. Same could be said of many themes. I will continue to say that i do not like the "free points" bonuses of themes. The upkeeps out on turn 1 helps you deploy your beasts further from your caster. I don't think that you can call a theme list "restrictive" when it allows you to bring every single support model you would possibly want.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on May 31, 2017 14:56:19 GMT
The issue with the tharn theme is the tharn themselves. The theme benefits are actually pretty good. Tharn need a unit by unit overhaul if they want that theme to work. Blood pack, ravagers, wolf riders, they all are meh or absolute trash. That leaves you with Bloodtrackers and weavers (which i actually think are good for their points.) and they have no staying power. If ravagers gained Brutal Charge and blood pack gained prey (and a points decrease) then I think I would consider the theme more. I wonder if the Blood pack could drop assault and heart eater, keep the price tag, but gain brutal damage bows? I think that would be fantastic. Boosted pow 13s from the other side of a forest! Yes the Tharn theme is cool. But the only "viable" infantry to take and give heart tokens to is the death wolves who are not even real Tharn.
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