Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on May 30, 2017 7:42:38 GMT
It's a little funny how many people use Oracles as an example of a good theme list, even though there are still major problems in its design. For instance, I have yet to see one that actually uses infantry, even though one of the benefits is giving a unit Apparition. Which in any faction with infantry worth a damn would be absolutely amazing, yet Legion players skip it for more beasts. And I absolutely understand why they do it (Hex Hunters aren't too good, Blackfrost Shard and Pot are options, but don't benefit from Apparition that much, also, just take more beasts). I think that's a major issue within Legion. I played vs an opponent using black frost shard. It was ok.
Probably not worth the 4th free solo you give up though.
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unded
Junior Strategist
Posts: 760
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Post by unded on May 30, 2017 9:36:49 GMT
To be fair, that's a problem with Legion itself and not Oracles.
If the infantry was worth a damn you'd see it in Oracles. Sadly the only infantry really used are Raptors (cannot be taken in Oracles) and on occasion Swordsmen (cannot be taken in Oracles, and really not great either thanks to lacking pathfinder in a faction that cannot hand out pathfinder). The infantry Oracles offers are hex hunters, and they're just not very good, even with apparition. Fix hexies, and you'll see more variety.
-und_ed
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Post by pangurban on May 30, 2017 10:37:39 GMT
To be fair, that's a problem with Legion itself and not Oracles. If the infantry was worth a damn you'd see it in Oracles. Sadly the only infantry really used are Raptors (cannot be taken in Oracles) and on occasion Swordsmen (cannot be taken in Oracles, and really not great either thanks to lacking pathfinder in a faction that cannot hand out pathfinder). The infantry Oracles offers are hex hunters, and they're just not very good, even with apparition. Fix hexies, and you'll see more variety. -und_ed Same with Stormblades in Storm Division.
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Post by Gamingdevil on May 30, 2017 11:26:14 GMT
To be fair, that's a problem with Legion itself and not Oracles. If the infantry was worth a damn you'd see it in Oracles. Sadly the only infantry really used are Raptors (cannot be taken in Oracles) and on occasion Swordsmen (cannot be taken in Oracles, and really not great either thanks to lacking pathfinder in a faction that cannot hand out pathfinder). The infantry Oracles offers are hex hunters, and they're just not very good, even with apparition. Fix hexies, and you'll see more variety. -und_ed That's exactly what I meant is the problem
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marke
Junior Strategist
Posts: 187
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Post by marke on May 30, 2017 14:24:00 GMT
Ghost Fleet & Dark Host wouldn't just build itself if Cryx jacks were actually worth playing, but by and large they're not. Indeed, hence the "if the foundation is rotten.." comment. Also, to repeat myself, this wouldn't be such a big problem if said themes weren't so much better than "regular lists" in majority of situations. Now I see people saying the same about Legion. Why PP is pushing cookie cutter themes instead of fixing the freakin' faction first with a vast array of cool looking models people have? (I know why, they want to sell more models) Locally, and I believe globally, Ghost Fleet has stirred the meta a bit. People are preparing for it, or at least notifying it. Not a bad thing in a vacuum, but I'd much rather see people notifying "Cryx" as a whole instead of one narrow build. Remember pre-nerf Wold War? This is not the same, not even close, but also a situation I don't want the game to be in. I don't think I've ever seen Bradigus competitively played outside an overpowered theme, which is design I don't like - at all. The joy in listbuilding comes from creativity, finding your own way of playing and being behind YOUR startegy and YOUR army.
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Post by pangurban on May 30, 2017 14:49:59 GMT
Ghost Fleet & Dark Host wouldn't just build itself if Cryx jacks were actually worth playing, but by and large they're not. Indeed, hence the "if the foundation is rotten.." comment. Also, to repeat myself, this wouldn't be such a big problem if said themes weren't so much better than "regular lists" in majority of situations. Now I see people saying the same about Legion. Why PP is pushing cookie cutter themes instead of fixing the freakin' faction first with a vast array of cool looking models people have? (I know why, they want to sell more models) Also: because themes are easier to do than faction overhauls, and because CID is supposed to handle model balancing bit by bit over time.
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marke
Junior Strategist
Posts: 187
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Post by marke on May 30, 2017 18:44:17 GMT
Good theory, but model balancing becomes even more difficult with Themes around.
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Post by pangurban on May 30, 2017 20:22:48 GMT
Good theory, but model balancing becomes even more difficult with Themes around. Why is that? On the most basic level themes should be balanced vs other themes (and ideally reasonably balanced vs non-themed as well) and models should be balanced vs other models. Themes making models better is ok, as long as they come with appropriate downsides vs non-themed lists and aren't too good compared to what ither themes do for other models.
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Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
Posts: 605
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Post by Deller on May 31, 2017 0:54:25 GMT
It's a little funny how many people use Oracles as an example of a good theme list, even though there are still major problems in its design. For instance, I have yet to see one that actually uses infantry, even though one of the benefits is giving a unit Apparition. Which in any faction with infantry worth a damn would be absolutely amazing, yet Legion players skip it for more beasts. And I absolutely understand why they do it (Hex Hunters aren't too good, Blackfrost Shard and Pot are options, but don't benefit from Apparition that much, also, just take more beasts). I think that's a major issue within Legion. I played vs an opponent using black frost shard. It was ok.
Probably not worth the 4th free solo you give up though.
But you don't have to give up free solos when you have Blight Wasps. I've seen a couple Abby2 Oracles lists that bring a unit or two of Wasps and honestly they're not terrible there. But I've definitely seen Hex Hunters or the BFS occasionally. Hell JVM's Kryssa Oracles list from the SOO had both imgur.com/a/dTWDH. They're not incredibly popular in Oracles, but they're not bad.
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Post by Cryptix on May 31, 2017 1:40:31 GMT
The topic is not general themes.
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Post by elladan52 on May 31, 2017 3:14:55 GMT
The topic is not general themes. You might want to update the rules thread and add "no going off the original topic of the thread, not even organically" to the rules, because it's not in there. Not even "stay on topic". Just fyi.
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Post by Scrub_of_Menoth on May 31, 2017 4:18:36 GMT
The topic is not general themes. You might want to update the rules thread and add "no going off the original topic of the thread, not even organically" to the rules, because it's not in there. Not even "stay on topic". Just fyi. We'll look into it. But Cryptix is right, this thread has gone into a general theme force discussion. What we usually tell users is that if the discussion has gone beyond the topic, feel free to go start a new thread that references and links the original thread.
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marke
Junior Strategist
Posts: 187
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Post by marke on May 31, 2017 6:28:15 GMT
Good theory, but model balancing becomes even more difficult with Themes around. Why is that? On the most basic level themes should be balanced vs other themes (and ideally reasonably balanced vs non-themed as well) and models should be balanced vs other models. Themes making models better is ok, as long as they come with appropriate downsides vs non-themed lists and aren't too good compared to what ither themes do for other models. Because if Cryx jacks were better, Ghost Fleet would be nuts. Hence, once again, make the faction work first and add themes later.
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on May 31, 2017 7:39:06 GMT
You might want to update the rules thread and add "no going off the original topic of the thread, not even organically" to the rules, because it's not in there. Not even "stay on topic". Just fyi. We'll look into it. But Cryptix is right, this thread has gone into a general theme force discussion. What we usually tell users is that if the discussion has gone beyond the topic, feel free to go start a new thread that references and links the original thread.It's no huge deal, but it seems incredibly counter productive to quell the natural evolution of these conversation, when the board is quite quiet anyway.
Surely we should be encouraging people to contribute rather than creating arbitrary rules that quash discussion?
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Post by pangurban on May 31, 2017 11:02:48 GMT
Why is that? On the most basic level themes should be balanced vs other themes (and ideally reasonably balanced vs non-themed as well) and models should be balanced vs other models. Themes making models better is ok, as long as they come with appropriate downsides vs non-themed lists and aren't too good compared to what ither themes do for other models. Because if Cryx jacks were better, Ghost Fleet would be nuts. Hence, once again, make the faction work first and add themes later. Ghost Fleet does nothing for jacks and gains nothing from jacks. Obviously every Cryx theme becomes better if their non-character jacks become better, but I seriously doubt better balanced bonejacks would make Ghost Fleet "nuts". Edit: sorry, that was a bit dismissive of your actual argument. I do see what you mean - if themes make models better, making them better outside the theme potentially overpowers them in the theme - but this only follows if there's a problem with the theme's balance. A theme's benefits should be balanced out by it's drawbacks. It could in theory grotesquely overpower any given model in it, as long as it adds a commensurate cost to playing the theme so the list ends up balanced (note: this would be bad design for several reasons and it's not something PP is going to do; I'm just supporting my argument). Theme balance and model balance are(should be) separate issues. Because of this, I don't think the existence of themes makes balancing models necessarily more difficult.
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