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Post by SmokeWisper on May 18, 2017 13:52:50 GMT
Just as an aside, 70% of the list in the top 8 were theme list. My numbers on list drop rates might be off because I don't have all the data but from what I have it looks like theme list are getting dropped 88% of the time.
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Post by cainuslupus on May 28, 2017 20:21:27 GMT
I think what you're missing, marke, is that in order to have a true baseline you need to quantify all the relevant variables. While it's easy to quantify the free points, it's very difficult to quantify the opportunity cost of the themes' restrictions, or the value of the themes' fringe benefits. How many points would you say I'm losing in giving up the ability to strider deathstalkers in Oracles of Annihilation? Is that the same value as the loss of Sentry stones in the Wild Hunt? Are those losses the same for each caster ? (clearly not, we all know how caster-model synergies work). The baseline just falls apart unless you include all the relevant variables. -und_ed This. Not being able to use good infantry in Oracles restricts it to battlegroup heavy casters. I've just built Oracles Abby2 list with four free solos. The last one was Helion which does nothing in terms of synergy to her. Still it's better than other option that is Beast Mistress which has direct skornergy with Absylonia2. Shallow pool of solos and infantry is big opportunity cost. Normally I would never consider Hexhunters which are plainly weak and costly option. Some casters will work inside ramifications of certain theme, others are plainly better without it. There are no themes that works for half of Legion casters. |
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Post by octaviusmaximus on May 28, 2017 22:53:48 GMT
I like themes  |
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Post by Scrub_of_Menoth on May 29, 2017 4:21:25 GMT
I like themes You seem like a minority sometimes.  As an update, Tim also won MoMCon this weekend. I'm going to have to convince him to apprentice me or something when I start trying to git gud. |
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Post by octaviusmaximus on May 29, 2017 7:12:53 GMT
I like themes You seem like a minority sometimes. As an update, Tim also won MoMCon this weekend. I'm going to have to convince him to apprentice me or something when I start trying to git gud. Recently people have been very annoyingly critical of things that are pretty easily resolved. I like theme forces, they let me take cool lists built around central themes of each faction. They aren't perfect but I would much prefer to improve the system rather than throw it away like many seem to suggest. |
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Post by flamigant on May 29, 2017 8:30:31 GMT
You seem like a minority sometimes. As an update, Tim also won MoMCon this weekend. I'm going to have to convince him to apprentice me or something when I start trying to git gud. Recently people have been very annoyingly critical of things that are pretty easily resolved. I like theme forces, they let me take cool lists built around central themes of each faction. They aren't perfect but I would much prefer to improve the system rather than throw it away like many seem to suggest. You can at least acknowledge that some factions clearly have themes that are way above the curve. |
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Post by pangurban on May 29, 2017 9:44:15 GMT
Recently people have been very annoyingly critical of things that are pretty easily resolved. I like theme forces, they let me take cool lists built around central themes of each faction. They aren't perfect but I would much prefer to improve the system rather than throw it away like many seem to suggest. You can at least acknowledge that some factions clearly have themes that are way above the curve. Most players do. That doesn't make themes bad in general. I mean, some factions have models that are above the curve as well. Some certainly had a few that were way above the curve. We fix that by adjusting what needs to be adjusted, not by removing models from the game (which would obviously mean we wouldn't have a game). |
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Post by octaviusmaximus on May 29, 2017 9:53:44 GMT
Recently people have been very annoyingly critical of things that are pretty easily resolved. I like theme forces, they let me take cool lists built around central themes of each faction. They aren't perfect but I would much prefer to improve the system rather than throw it away like many seem to suggest. You can at least acknowledge that some factions clearly have themes that are way above the curve. Most factions have themes, models, units and lists that are way above, way below and exactly on the curve. Every faction can compete, some have smaller selections of models, some have larger. At current I really can't muster the energy to crusade against this when it seems that PP is clearly trying to correct some levels of problems as evidenced by a bunch of playable battle engines hitting the scene soon. Just...stop caring about Greener grass and realise that everyone has *something* and that's a good thing. Edit: although I would be far more a proponent of buffing crappy things than nerfing powerful things. I don't think anything in the game is so powerful that it breaks the rules and it needs to be fixed, it is often down to a lack of competition rather than something being broken. |
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marke
Junior Strategist
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Post by marke on May 29, 2017 10:10:42 GMT
If I had to guess, people don't like themes because they are a non-creative auto-select solution in many cases. It's a bit like deck archetypes in competitive card games.
If themes would be in a place where choosing them is an interesting option instead of clearly the best choice, I guess people wouldn't have much problems with them. I know I wouldn't. Maybe this depends on a faction too, but as we're discussing Cryx here, it is pretty clear themes are overall the stronger choice (even if some people win tournaments out of theme).
I liked themes much more in mk2, even though some were above or below the curve quite a bit. The new formula is dull and lacks flavor.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on May 29, 2017 11:16:53 GMT
If I had to guess, people don't like themes because they are a non-creative auto-select solution in many cases. It's a bit like deck archetypes in competitive card games. If themes would be in a place where choosing them is an interesting option instead of clearly the best choice, I guess people wouldn't have much problems with them. I know I wouldn't. Maybe this depends on a faction too, but as we're discussing Cryx here, it is pretty clear themes are overall the stronger choice (even if some people win tournaments out of theme). I liked themes much more in mk2, even though some were above or below the curve quite a bit. The new formula is dull and lacks flavor. Themes aren't point and click, storm division and heavy metal lists can look entirely different from others because of caster synergies. Not only that, but a lot of the problem is themes including choices that are bad (stormguard and silverline, I'm looking at you). So balancing units and releasing more themes is also a way to resolve an issue with themes, not just people wanting themes to go away. |
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marke
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Post by marke on May 29, 2017 15:33:37 GMT
If I had to guess, people don't like themes because they are a non-creative auto-select solution in many cases. It's a bit like deck archetypes in competitive card games. If themes would be in a place where choosing them is an interesting option instead of clearly the best choice, I guess people wouldn't have much problems with them. I know I wouldn't. Maybe this depends on a faction too, but as we're discussing Cryx here, it is pretty clear themes are overall the stronger choice (even if some people win tournaments out of theme). I liked themes much more in mk2, even though some were above or below the curve quite a bit. The new formula is dull and lacks flavor. Themes aren't point and click, storm division and heavy metal lists can look entirely different from others because of caster synergies. Not only that, but a lot of the problem is themes including choices that are bad (stormguard and silverline, I'm looking at you). So balancing units and releasing more themes is also a way to resolve an issue with themes, not just people wanting themes to go away. Good points! Which is why I said "depends on a faction". Ghost Fleet (and Bane theme to a lesser extent) seems rather point and click, as far as what's the best power level build. Some other themes might be not. I have nothing against themes as an idea, in fact, they are an excellent idea! I just think the current execution sucks, and I would've polished them more before releasing. They are not a healthy fix for the faction. If the foundation is rotten it's useless to try to build a palace on top. PP has shown they can create an interesting and versatile faction in the Skorne rework. There should be nothing preventing them to fix other factions in a similar fashion.. but maybe the Skorne rework didn't increase Skorne sales enough to justify the time spent. Getting good themes for popular factions surely makes more money. Nothing against making money, but kinda reminds me a little bit why Space Marines always get the new toys. Good themes > no themes > bad themes. IMO.. and somehow I feel quite many agree. |
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Deller
Junior Strategist
I’m on a Boat
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Post by Deller on May 29, 2017 17:06:15 GMT
Themes aren't point and click, storm division and heavy metal lists can look entirely different from others because of caster synergies. Not only that, but a lot of the problem is themes including choices that are bad (stormguard and silverline, I'm looking at you). So balancing units and releasing more themes is also a way to resolve an issue with themes, not just people wanting themes to go away. Good points! Which is why I said "depends on a faction". Ghost Fleet (and Bane theme to a lesser extent) seems rather point and click, as far as what's the best power level build. Some other themes might be not. I have nothing against themes as an idea, in fact, they are an excellent idea! I just think the current execution sucks, and I would've polished them more before releasing. They are not a healthy fix for the faction. If the foundation is rotten it's useless to try to build a palace on top. PP has shown they can create an interesting and versatile faction in the Skorne rework. There should be nothing preventing them to fix other factions in a similar fashion.. but maybe the Skorne rework didn't increase Skorne sales enough to justify the time spent. Getting good themes for popular factions surely makes more money. Nothing against making money, but kinda reminds me a little bit why Space Marines always get the new toys. Good themes > no themes > bad themes. IMO.. and somehow I feel quite many agree. Ghost Fleet & Dark Host wouldn't just build itself if Cryx jacks were actually worth playing, but by and large they're not. These themes have extremely narrow infantry options which is why they build themselves. When you can only take 2-3 different units, one unit is a character in GF, and your factions Warjacks by and large suck there's really only 1-2 ways for the theme force to look. Compared to any of the Khador or Cygnar themes with similar unit restrictions those factions still have tremendous diversity within the theme simply because they have a lot of different Warjack load outs they can bring that change how the list operates. |
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Post by pangurban on May 29, 2017 17:56:58 GMT
Good points! Which is why I said "depends on a faction". Ghost Fleet (and Bane theme to a lesser extent) seems rather point and click, as far as what's the best power level build. Some other themes might be not. I have nothing against themes as an idea, in fact, they are an excellent idea! I just think the current execution sucks, and I would've polished them more before releasing. They are not a healthy fix for the faction. If the foundation is rotten it's useless to try to build a palace on top. PP has shown they can create an interesting and versatile faction in the Skorne rework. There should be nothing preventing them to fix other factions in a similar fashion.. but maybe the Skorne rework didn't increase Skorne sales enough to justify the time spent. Getting good themes for popular factions surely makes more money. Nothing against making money, but kinda reminds me a little bit why Space Marines always get the new toys. Good themes > no themes > bad themes. IMO.. and somehow I feel quite many agree. Ghost Fleet & Dark Host wouldn't just build itself if Cryx jacks were actually worth playing, but by and large they're not. These themes have extremely narrow infantry options which is why they build themselves. When you can only take 2-3 different units, one unit is a character in GF, and your factions Warjacks by and large suck there's really only 1-2 ways for the theme force to look. Compared to any of the Khador or Cygnar themes with similar unit restrictions those factions still have tremendous diversity within the theme simply because they have a lot of different Warjack load outs they can bring that change how the list operates. Themes can only really make a bunch of models - the ones that make up the theme - better. They don't really work if you're hoping to balance out single models. So if there is a marked imbalance between the different models allowed by a theme, you're only going to see the better ones used. Storm Division gives an explicit benefit to Stormblades, and yet they're still overlooked for Lances. That's not a problem with Storm Division, it's a problem with faction balance in Cygnar. Similar arguments can be made for most of the other themes that feel cookie-cutter. |
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Deller
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Post by Deller on May 29, 2017 20:38:00 GMT
Ghost Fleet & Dark Host wouldn't just build itself if Cryx jacks were actually worth playing, but by and large they're not. These themes have extremely narrow infantry options which is why they build themselves. When you can only take 2-3 different units, one unit is a character in GF, and your factions Warjacks by and large suck there's really only 1-2 ways for the theme force to look. Compared to any of the Khador or Cygnar themes with similar unit restrictions those factions still have tremendous diversity within the theme simply because they have a lot of different Warjack load outs they can bring that change how the list operates. Themes can only really make a bunch of models - the ones that make up the theme - better. They don't really work if you're hoping to balance out single models. So if there is a marked imbalance between the different models allowed by a theme, you're only going to see the better ones used. Storm Division gives an explicit benefit to Stormblades, and yet they're still overlooked for Lances. That's not a problem with Storm Division, it's a problem with faction balance in Cygnar. Similar arguments can be made for most of the other themes that feel cookie-cutter. I agree 100%, I'm just saying that themes are going to be much more diverse in factions that have better noncharacter Jacks/Beasts because those models are largly unrestricted in most themes. Just look at the diversity in this pairing alone: www.discountgamesinc.com/tournaments/players/view/1415One Winterguard Kommand list is an infantry spam, the other is built as a jack spam utilizing minimal winter guard for the sac pawn ability. www.discountgamesinc.com/tournaments/players/view/1420 These two Oracles lists have very little in common despite both being Beast spam. www.discountgamesinc.com/tournaments/players/view/1407 These Heavy Metal lists only have 4 models in common and play quite differently. The factions that have good noncharacter jacks/beasts will see a lot of diversity in their theme force lists since they have access to a lot more good models in every theme. The factions with poorer noncharacter jacks/beasts like Cryx or heavy theme restrictions on noncharacter jacks/beasts like Circle are going to tend to be more linear in their theme builds. The's really only 3 decisions when building a Ghost Fleet list. Who's my caster? What's filling their WJ points? Do I want a Wraith Engine? The rest of the list builds itself with the remaining points. If Cryx had a better Warjack catalog I might consider playing Ghost Fleet with Jack casters like Venethrax for the extra +1 to go first benefit (I tried to make it work when the theme first released), but our noncharacter jacks aren't good enough to warrant playing Venethrax without them. |
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Post by Gamingdevil on May 30, 2017 7:33:05 GMT
It's a little funny how many people use Oracles as an example of a good theme list, even though there are still major problems in its design. For instance, I have yet to see one that actually uses infantry, even though one of the benefits is giving a unit Apparition. Which in any faction with infantry worth a damn would be absolutely amazing, yet Legion players skip it for more beasts. And I absolutely understand why they do it (Hex Hunters aren't too good, Blackfrost Shard and Pot are options, but don't benefit from Apparition that much, also, just take more beasts). I think that's a major issue within Legion. |
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