crimsyn
Junior Strategist
Posts: 389
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Post by crimsyn on May 15, 2017 16:49:02 GMT
One more thing -- yes, it is good to mix it up with your caster choice sometimes, for your own benefit or your opponent's. However, I wouldn't worry about it too much. If you keep using Haley2 and only Haley2, eventually your meta will just drop anti-Haley lists into you.
This happened in my former meta. We had one very good player who would come up with a list, do a lo of theorymachine, and then kick everyone's face in for a few weeks until someone countered it and he started getting his face kicked in. Then maybe he would switch after a couple weeks of that. It was a fun challenge to try to unpack his list and counter it.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on May 16, 2017 6:32:15 GMT
As an occasional Haley player and an all the time competitive player I don't like playing against crappy casters. Games where my casters aren't challenged are *boring*.
Im focused on interesting things g's like maximising efficiency of feat turns, using spells correctly and making up interesting strategy, while meanwhile on the other side of the table Kryssa is staring at her spells and feat and realises that she has *nothing* to do. What's the point of playing with garbage when you could be playing fun?
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spideredd
Junior Strategist
Summer Gamer
Posts: 588
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Post by spideredd on May 16, 2017 7:54:08 GMT
As an occasional Haley player and an all the time competitive player I don't like playing against crappy casters. Games where my casters aren't challenged are *boring*. Im focused on interesting things g's like maximising efficiency of feat turns, using spells correctly and making up interesting strategy, while meanwhile on the other side of the table Kryssa is staring at her spells and feat and realises that she has *nothing* to do. What's the point of playing with garbage when you could be playing fun? That's your definition of fun. One that I largely have myself. Some people have a different one. I definitely agree that I'd rather see a caster on the other side of the board that challenges me than one that doesn't, because games that are too easy aren't interesting to me, but I'd also hate to see a caster that I simply can't beat because an unwinnable game is also boring. edit2: My favourite game is a close one where fun was had by all.
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Post by Cryptix on May 16, 2017 11:23:58 GMT
I don't care about challenged or what not, I care about what they *do* doing a game. When was the last time you saw Denny actually use Shadow Bind? How about Venom, or Dark Seduction. No, because all you take them for is to have a -4 to -5 armor swing. Powerful, but boring. Butcher3 is a good example of how a caster should look like - take note I'm not saying all casters are melee beatsticks, but if your caster's gameplay can be summed up in 2 sentences or less, that's no fun to play with or against.
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isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
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Post by isotope on May 16, 2017 11:30:31 GMT
As an occasional Haley player and an all the time competitive player I don't like playing against crappy casters. Games where my casters aren't challenged are *boring*. Im focused on interesting things g's like maximising efficiency of feat turns, using spells correctly and making up interesting strategy, while meanwhile on the other side of the table Kryssa is staring at her spells and feat and realises that she has *nothing* to do. What's the point of playing with garbage when you could be playing fun? The feels when you go to the game store to practice and the person you play with busts out the "This is just some troll(not the faction) list I wanted to goof around with."
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on May 16, 2017 11:44:12 GMT
I know I like Harkevich . . . 2. I joke that I like to play against Haley2 because it is so rare that I see the front of my jacks, but her ability to TK and dominate one of your jacks and have it walk forward and turn around to subsequently take it in the back is frustrating. Especially if the jack somehow survives, only to be feated on and unable to turn around and punch things because of the feat. There is just something that irks people about having the other guy take control of their models and do something like that with them. If only Harkevich had some way to deal with his warjacks facing in the wrong direction...
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Post by ForEver_Blight on May 16, 2017 13:58:00 GMT
As an occasional Haley player and an all the time competitive player I don't like playing against crappy casters. Games where my casters aren't challenged are *boring*. Im focused on interesting things g's like maximising efficiency of feat turns, using spells correctly and making up interesting strategy, while meanwhile on the other side of the table Kryssa is staring at her spells and feat and realises that she has *nothing* to do. What's the point of playing with garbage when you could be playing fun? There can be a half dozen completely different reasons for this. It could be the fact that your caster, like Haley, left no counter play for their melee specific list. It could be that the person is trying to learn a new caster. Not everyone will player masters level lists and not every player is masters level skill. Did it ever cross your mind that they enjoy that caster, or that faction, that you write off as garbage? Maybe they're already having fun, because they ARE being challenged. Haley 2, Denny, just control in general is meant to be oppressive, it's the point of control. Haley is not busted. She's powerful at control. It just happens she's in a very powerful faction that has a tool box answer to literally everything and it's all on their best models they want to take 90% of the time. If Denny could take a stormwall, stormlances, firefly, arcane shield-on-a-stick you'd all react similarly. Haley is probably the least common denominator when it comes to Cygnar's power. [rant] Stop calling Kryssa garbage! [/rant]
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on May 16, 2017 14:34:59 GMT
Since SR17 is around the corner, it's probably not necessary to change H2 much. She relies a ton on scenario to win, so she'll probably lose some steam just from that.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on May 16, 2017 14:40:32 GMT
Since SR17 is around the corner, it's probably not necessary to change H2 much. She relies a ton on scenario to win, so she'll probably lose some steam just from that. While I certainly agree that not being able to race to 5 CPs will remove some steam, she still has hyper threat range extenders and a complete time walk feat, she can attrition with the best of them if you build your list to do it.
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zeffid
Junior Strategist
Posts: 163
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Post by zeffid on May 16, 2017 14:41:04 GMT
All these 4 pages and noone mentioned that this laydy (H2) is also very reliable: 1) Got engaged? No problem - Telekinezis 2) Arcnode (thorn) got engaged? No problem - he just ignores that 3) Missed an attack roll? No problem - re-roll 4) Have FOCUS issues? No problem - roll first then decide if you need to boost OR see p3. 5) Charge lanes for a Caster Kill blocked? No problem - Telekinezis again 6) Didn't do enough damage on your alfa? No problem - FEAT. Also apply telekinezis for 0 retaliation.
You see, reliability is what makes her great! ... and telekinezis is her main tool. Remove that and she is back to normal.
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Post by jisidro on May 16, 2017 14:41:50 GMT
I agree with your friends, she has a hgh skill ceiling but her kit is insane.
- A Feat that you can't do anything about except Dr.Arkadius who can trade feats. - 18" Feat - Tk + Arc Node + 8 focus + Future Sight + Reroll - Threat Extension /reduction in every way possible. From TK, Time Bomb, Domination, Temporal Acceleration. - In the current iteration she can be immune to blast and KD. Giving some protection to a caster who just doesn't have to die to win games. - Get close to her and deal with a POW13 caster with 8(perhaps9) focus to spend on attacks, now with Future Sight.
All of this in the faction with the greatest ease in target choice and the biggest threat ranges.
I believe the only thing that keeps her in the game is that a lot of people know how to play against her because they had to learn. I think you'd have twice the cry you had over Una2 if she was released now.
She is legal, she is beatable so you can play her with a clear consience.
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Post by jisidro on May 16, 2017 14:43:13 GMT
Since SR17 is around the corner, it's probably not necessary to change H2 much. She relies a ton on scenario to win, so she'll probably lose some steam just from that.
These battle reports show the opposite:
www.courageofcaspia.com/
7 turns and CPs do seem like mercy endings...
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isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
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Post by isotope on May 16, 2017 14:46:01 GMT
She does nothing to strengthen her army. Her ability to control and threat extend is great. Sure she can bring a Jr, but that's still a very limited amount of buffs in a faction balanced around defensive upkeeps. Losing her ability to win with 5 control points means that you can literally just back up when she feats without auto losing.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on May 16, 2017 15:14:14 GMT
As an occasional Haley player and an all the time competitive player I don't like playing against crappy casters. Games where my casters aren't challenged are *boring*. Im focused on interesting things g's like maximising efficiency of feat turns, using spells correctly and making up interesting strategy, while meanwhile on the other side of the table Kryssa is staring at her spells and feat and realises that she has *nothing* to do. What's the point of playing with garbage when you could be playing fun? There can be a half dozen completely different reasons for this. It could be the fact that your caster, like Haley, left no counter play for their melee specific list. It could be that the person is trying to learn a new caster. Not everyone will player masters level lists and not every player is masters level skill. Did it ever cross your mind that they enjoy that caster, or that faction, that you write off as garbage? Maybe they're already having fun, because they ARE being challenged. Haley 2, Denny, just control in general is meant to be oppressive, it's the point of control. Haley is not busted. She's powerful at control. It just happens she's in a very powerful faction that has a tool box answer to literally everything and it's all on their best models they want to take 90% of the time. If Denny could take a stormwall, stormlances, firefly, arcane shield-on-a-stick you'd all react similarly. Haley is probably the least common denominator when it comes to Cygnar's power. [rant] Stop calling Kryssa garbage! [/rant] To be honest, I find Denny to be way worse. Against Haley2 you have one turn of being miserable and then you can start trying to turn it around. Against Denny you get half your army blown up, then get to be extra miserable for a turn and after all that you can try picking up the pieces with what little you have left. I do like that she needs to get up closer to feat, but when your faction is built around melee it doesn't really matter if the caster that prevents you from charging is 14" or 18" away.
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Post by macdaddy on May 16, 2017 19:36:53 GMT
As an occasional Haley player and an all the time competitive player I don't like playing against crappy casters. Games where my casters aren't challenged are *boring*. Im focused on interesting things g's like maximising efficiency of feat turns, using spells correctly and making up interesting strategy, while meanwhile on the other side of the table Kryssa is staring at her spells and feat and realises that she has *nothing* to do. What's the point of playing with garbage when you could be playing fun? As a person who advocated for a "garbage caster" for most of Mark 3 and now that people way better than me are trying him out they are realizing he isn't garbage this is kind of frustrating. Everyone playing the internet approved optimized list is bad and boring for the meta. People playing all kinds of different things, making "garbage casters" they love and enjoy work even despite the uphill fight is what makes this game exciting and engaging to me. Competitive gaming is cool and if you like efficiency maxing cool but don't sit there and complain about people who play a caster they like for fun just because it isn't challenging for you.. Haley 2 is a strong, abusive, swiss army knife that can just wreck anyone not prepared for her. Is she beatable? yes, but you cant be upset at your opponents for you playing a caster that just poops on most standard armies in the game. You want a challenge? make "garbage casters" work. That's a challenge and rewarding and fun.
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