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Post by oncomingstorm on May 8, 2017 5:20:58 GMT
Then I assume thats the "This Caster is OP" factor. Just unrelenting no problems and overall goodness. Id say if you can't give good solutions and overall tips how to defeat her then a caster truly is OP. Im not saying everything should have an easy counter but most of the "Weaknesses" you listed are strengths. Maybe its to do with the wording. Like I like Playing Harkevitch, and my suggestions to people new to him are to force a Defensive feat but don't commit. Like Minimize your early commitment, and without the feat allot of the bonus focus and hitting power is gone. Then grind through selectively. Okay, I'll elaborate on weaknesses. She doesn't like going into guns. She's fragile to assassination personally, and doesn't have much in her kit to help against them. Her feat doesn't hurt gunlines much, and she lost decel. She's pretty melee reliant, so guns can hurt her army. And counter control can mess with her, and make for really interesting games. Against other casters with movement shenanigans, the threat vectors go crazy. Out of activation movement can nullify her feat pretty well. If your stuff doesn't need to charge to get there, then you're good. For advice: try to give your opponent lots of bad options for control shenanigans. Use obstructions and models to make telekinesis hard to pull off. Pressure him to spend all his focus, and then assassinate the defenseless caster. Playing Haley makes it easy to spend too much focus. Also, if you can, try to take out Thorn whenever the oppurtunity may arise. If you can knock out his arc node, or disrupt him, or just kill him, do it. He's a majorly important piece. Without Thorn, Haley's options become limited. She instantly has to play way further up than she wants to. So in reply, as someone who has both played Cygnar and played against a lot of Cygnar... 1. A weakness to guns is not something unique to Haley. a good 1/3 to 1/2 of all casters/locks are seriously threatened by boostable small arms fire, and almost NO caster particularly likes getting shot at. Off the top of my head, Ossyan, the Nemos, pretty much any medium, large or huge based caster (wurmwood excepted) are 'weak to shooting' in the sense of being a bad drop into a gunline. Furthermore, Haley isn't particularly vulnerably to shooting. She's high defense, has access to cheap shield guards, is small based, and can often play pretty far back (18" control bubble with the squire, access to one of the best arc nodes in the game - Thorn.) Her getting shot down on feat turn (the only turn she really wants to play up the board at all) shouldn't happen often - between enemies being unable to move and shoot, and being unable to get the aiming bonus (on a DEF 16 caster) the enemy shouldn't be getting many shots on her, particularly since you can premeasure the ranges of all their guns. 2. The problem with dealing with Haley's placement/control effects is not that she does placement shenanigans especially well - Rahn, for instance, does it waaaaay better. The issue is that she's versatile enough that if you deny her one aspect of her toolbox, she has others. Maybe you can prevent her from TKing you/dominating you by bunching up (you really can't rely on a convenient obstruction to save you.) Once you've done that, though, are you safe from storm lances throwing electro-leaps everywhere? Can you deal with a jack bullet from downtown? Let's not forget the scenario presence you're giving up by bunching up like that either. 3. As to out-of-activation movement...it's uncommon, to say the least, and furthermore it's usually baked into a caster. It also tends to be limited, either in terms of range or in number of models targeted (Overtake targets one model, warpath is only a 3" move (and both require something to die to be triggered,) TK is 2") It doesn't answer the question of 'how do I play into Haley 2 without building a list specifically to deal with her?' No, Haley doesn't like to see a straight up gunline, but against most balanced lists, it always feels like an uphill battle against her. I will not be at all surprised to see her get knocked down a peg in a CID cycle at some point.
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regleant
Junior Strategist
Sometimes things go right
Posts: 267
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Post by regleant on May 8, 2017 5:22:46 GMT
As others have said, you have to accept that: 1) yes, she's an insanely powerful caster 2) she will auto-win some match ups, and that 3) some opponents don't want to face the auto-loss.
So bring a 2nd list to practice with. But your opponents who are whining about just not wanting to face her on the table are doing themselves a disservice. By not practicing against her in "fun" games, they'll never figure out how to beat her when it matters (e.g. tournament).
And did I read correctly that someone things Denny2 was nerfed in MK3!? I would personally still keep her as one of the top 3 in the game.
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Post by macdaddy on May 8, 2017 5:37:58 GMT
I learned a long time ago that if you can survive through haleys Feat and get her to Feat first you have a good chance of winning the game. My Cynar Ret drop is designed to face haleys. It's tanks through2 alphas of jacks/shooting, heals up, and can punch through cygnar and ret jacks. I am currently undefeated into cygnar with it. Haley 2 sucks to play against it's just in her design. But trust me, Haley 3 sucks worse. Haley 2 is significantly less horrible after her feats out of the way. Haley 3 is horrible every turn haha
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on May 8, 2017 5:55:29 GMT
Stupid mary Sue caster with Mary sue design. I have seen plenty more factions in fiction that where both the good guys and still more interesting and complex in nature.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on May 8, 2017 7:21:50 GMT
Okay, I'll elaborate on weaknesses. She doesn't like going into guns. She's fragile to assassination personally, and doesn't have much in her kit to help against them. Her feat doesn't hurt gunlines much, and she lost decel. She's pretty melee reliant, so guns can hurt her army. And counter control can mess with her, and make for really interesting games. Against other casters with movement shenanigans, the threat vectors go crazy. Out of activation movement can nullify her feat pretty well. If your stuff doesn't need to charge to get there, then you're good. For advice: try to give your opponent lots of bad options for control shenanigans. Use obstructions and models to make telekinesis hard to pull off. Pressure him to spend all his focus, and then assassinate the defenseless caster. Playing Haley makes it easy to spend too much focus. Also, if you can, try to take out Thorn whenever the oppurtunity may arise. If you can knock out his arc node, or disrupt him, or just kill him, do it. He's a majorly important piece. Without Thorn, Haley's options become limited. She instantly has to play way further up than she wants to. So in reply, as someone who has both played Cygnar and played against a lot of Cygnar... 1. A weakness to guns is not something unique to Haley. a good 1/3 to 1/2 of all casters/locks are seriously threatened by boostable small arms fire, and almost NO caster particularly likes getting shot at. Off the top of my head, Ossyan, the Nemos, pretty much any medium, large or huge based caster (wurmwood excepted) are 'weak to shooting' in the sense of being a bad drop into a gunline. Furthermore, Haley isn't particularly vulnerably to shooting. She's high defense, has access to cheap shield guards, is small based, and can often play pretty far back (18" control bubble with the squire, access to one of the best arc nodes in the game - Thorn.) Her getting shot down on feat turn (the only turn she really wants to play up the board at all) shouldn't happen often - between enemies being unable to move and shoot, and being unable to get the aiming bonus (on a DEF 16 caster) the enemy shouldn't be getting many shots on her, particularly since you can premeasure the ranges of all their guns. 2. The problem with dealing with Haley's placement/control effects is not that she does placement shenanigans especially well - Rahn, for instance, does it waaaaay better. The issue is that she's versatile enough that if you deny her one aspect of her toolbox, she has others. Maybe you can prevent her from TKing you/dominating you by bunching up (you really can't rely on a convenient obstruction to save you.) Once you've done that, though, are you safe from storm lances throwing electro-leaps everywhere? Can you deal with a jack bullet from downtown? Let's not forget the scenario presence you're giving up by bunching up like that either. 3. As to out-of-activation movement...it's uncommon, to say the least, and furthermore it's usually baked into a caster. It also tends to be limited, either in terms of range or in number of models targeted (Overtake targets one model, warpath is only a 3" move (and both require something to die to be triggered,) TK is 2") It doesn't answer the question of 'how do I play into Haley 2 without building a list specifically to deal with her?' No, Haley doesn't like to see a straight up gunline, but against most balanced lists, it always feels like an uphill battle against her. I will not be at all surprised to see her get knocked down a peg in a CID cycle at some point. Ossyan has an anti guns feat and quicken. Bad example of a caster who's weak to shooting. Shooting and killing Haley on her feat isn't common. Shooting and killing her expensive models is far more common. Haley doesn't bring shield guards. In a world where the most common shield guards are free or models you were bringing anyway, a sentinel is one of the more inefficient shield guards in that it is 8 points and doesn't do anything else. There are still enough people who whine about cygnar that will get her onto cid. I don't look forward to that day. She's really good, I like that.
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Post by oncomingstorm on May 8, 2017 7:55:39 GMT
Sentinels are 8 points, and can actually get some work done at range (unlike most faction's shield guard options - ever tried a Wold Guardian?.) Bokurs are 5 (if you're not playing in theme, which - given that you're cygnar - is admittedly unlikely, since cygnar has two of the least restrictive themes in the game.) If people were actually worried about Haley's fragility to shooting, they would bring a shield guard. The fact that they don't is more indicative of the fact that shooting isn't a huge problem for her than an indictment of the shield guard itself.
Ossyan has Quicken, yes - and it should almost never be on Ossyan, as it's a powerful upkeep on almost any other unit, and is generally wasted on him. I have no clue what you think his feat is, to call it an 'anti-shooting feat' either. It's a feat that buffs shooting, not one that protects from shooting, and the way the feat works (enemy models must be within 14" of Ossyan) it often exposes Ossyan to retaliatory shooting. Hence why my Ossyan list brings two shield guards.
Cygnar deserves to have some of it's pieces looked at in CID. Kara Sloan runs a gunline which ignores most of the game's anti-gunline tech. Haley2 and Haley3 are both in the running for 'best caster in the game.' I say this as a cygnar player - Cygnar has some seriously broken crap.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on May 8, 2017 8:07:08 GMT
Cygnar deserves to have some of it's pieces looked at in CID. Kara Sloan runs a gunline which ignores most of the game's anti-gunline tech. Oh god this. I don't mind some Truesight, but just on all Jacks all the time is obnoxious as hell. A Hard Shutdown of Anti Ranged options and I'd say her alone meta bends allot of stealth Units value way down.
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Post by oncomingstorm on May 8, 2017 8:34:45 GMT
Cygnar deserves to have some of it's pieces looked at in CID. Kara Sloan runs a gunline which ignores most of the game's anti-gunline tech. Oh god this. I don't mind some Truesight, but just on all Jacks all the time is obnoxious as hell. A Hard Shutdown of Anti Ranged options and I'd say her alone meta bends allot of stealth Units value way down. Yeah, not to mention it depresses the value of shadow pack casters. Let's not forget Stormlances, and the Nemo3 Electric gunline, or the fact that Cygnar has arguably got the best colossal in the game right now. Ooh! and the fact that they have two extremely lenient themes which effectively reward with free points and advantages for taking the best models in Cygnar, without any major drawbacks (though that's a failing of most of the original Warmachine factions' theme lists, because they don't have the defined sub-themes most of the Hordes factions/Ret have, particularly among their jacks.) Ret's jack theme is restricted to half their jacks, Circle gets beast themes divided along living/non-living beast lines, but Cygnar gets all of their jacks AND all of their support? Circle gets a theme that supports two of their weaker subthemes, Wolf Sworn and Tharn. Skorne and Trolls get SHOOTING themes of all things (both of which are quite restrictive.) Even Ret's 'good' theme (Defenders of Ios) excludes their staple infantry (Sentinels.) Yet Cygnar gets a Theme which amplifies a strong subtheme within their army, gives them rewards for taking the very strong models they already want to take, and the only downside is a lack of access to a few merc solos. It's honestly a little like talking to Cryx players in Mk2. The denial that Cygnar has options well above what other factions get is very strong. Again, cygnar player here, and I will 100% say that Cygnar has some firetrucked crap that needs to be fixed at some point.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on May 8, 2017 8:56:54 GMT
Oh god this. I don't mind some Truesight, but just on all Jacks all the time is obnoxious as hell. A Hard Shutdown of Anti Ranged options and I'd say her alone meta bends allot of stealth Units value way down. Ooh! and the fact that they have two extremely lenient themes which effectively reward with free points and advantages for taking the best models in Cygnar, without any major drawbacks (though that's a failing of most of the original Warmachine factions' theme lists, because they don't have the defined sub-themes most of the Hordes factions/Ret have, particularly among their jacks.) Khador has probably the clearest and the plentiest sub themes in the entire game outside of mercs when it comes to infantry, but non-existent when it comes to Jacks. Unless you divive by literal Chasises, but none of them really stand for anything.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on May 8, 2017 9:05:22 GMT
I do not think at this stage you can really compare the have's and have not's between factions when comparing their current theme forces. Give it another 6 - 12 months and see what everyone has once more have been released. oncomingstorm the reason why the Ret theme specifies non-Vyre jacks and casters is because field marshal shield guard and arcane vortex is not ok.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on May 8, 2017 9:17:13 GMT
Sentinels are 8 points, and can actually get some work done at range (unlike most faction's shield guard options - ever tried a Wold Guardian?.) Bokurs are 5 (if you're not playing in theme, which - given that you're cygnar - is admittedly unlikely, since cygnar has two of the least restrictive themes in the game.) If people were actually worried about Haley's fragility to shooting, they would bring a shield guard. The fact that they don't is more indicative of the fact that shooting isn't a huge problem for her than an indictment of the shield guard itself. Ossyan has Quicken, yes - and it should almost never be on Ossyan, as it's a powerful upkeep on almost any other unit, and is generally wasted on him. I have no clue what you think his feat is, to call it an 'anti-shooting feat' either. It's a feat that buffs shooting, not one that protects from shooting, and the way the feat works (enemy models must be within 14" of Ossyan) it often exposes Ossyan to retaliatory shooting. Hence why my Ossyan list brings two shield guards. Cygnar deserves to have some of it's pieces looked at in CID. Kara Sloan runs a gunline which ignores most of the game's anti-gunline tech. Haley2 and Haley3 are both in the running for 'best caster in the game.' I say this as a cygnar player - Cygnar has some seriously broken crap. Sentinels are garbage. They don't bring any real ranged game because noone cares about range 10 Pow 10s. Here's the thing, you can say "quicken shouldn't be on Ossyan", but if you actually see the assassinations coming, then quicken is something to have and help. Ret saying cygnar has overpowered crap is rich Honestly, this has turned into a cygnar whine fest , especially hilarious when people complaining about Sloan. Sloan isn't very good
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Post by oncomingstorm on May 8, 2017 9:53:47 GMT
I do not think at this stage you can really compare the have's and have not's between factions when comparing their current theme forces. Give it another 6 - 12 months and see what everyone has once more have been released. oncomingstorm the reason why the Ret theme specifies non-Vyre jacks and casters is because field marshal shield guard and arcane vortex is not ok. Most factions have their 3 'base' theme forces. If we're supposed to wait 2 years from the release of mk3 to see 'balance', (which in this instance would really mean equitably distributed imbalance) then that's not OK. The 'reason' the theme breaks down like that is irrelevant - the point is that whereas Hordes factions (and Ret) have distinct subthemes to their heavies that allow for subthemes to be represented, Cygnar, Menoth, and Khador (not so much Cryx) do not. I will be quite surprised if we see a theme which restricts Cygnar to 'ironclad chassis' heavies only any time soon, because there's no meaningful reason to do so. Whereas other factions see 'thematic' restrictions on the heavies they can take which undermine the viability of their 'theme forces' It's beside the point, but I don't agree that FM arcane vortex and shield guard would be horrendously OP. Even if it is, designing themes to be restrictive because of models you have yet to release makes my skin crawl in a very GW-esque way. octaviusmaximus: I've seen Sloan in numerous pairing over the last several months. She's very viable, and offers a binary skew that wrecks a fair number of lists. She's also boring as all get out to play as, or against. Yes, Quicken can be on Ossyan. At that point, you're using two focus to cast it on him, which is often more important to keeping him alive, and taking an important and powerful upkeep off another unit. brilliant. And as I've mentioned many times, I'm not just a Ret player. I'm focusing on them right now (because I find them to be fun and interactive in Mk3, unlike my circle or my Cygnar) but they're not the only faction I play by any means.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on May 8, 2017 10:32:21 GMT
Most factions have their 3 'base' theme forces. If we're supposed to wait 2 years from the release of mk3 to see 'balance', (which in this instance would really mean equitably distributed imbalance) then that's not OK. The 'reason' the theme breaks down like that is irrelevant - the point is that whereas Hordes factions (and Ret) have distinct subthemes to their heavies that allow for subthemes to be represented, Cygnar, Menoth, and Khador (not so much Cryx) do not. I will be quite surprised if we see a theme which restricts Cygnar to 'ironclad chassis' heavies only any time soon, because there's no meaningful reason to do so. Whereas other factions see 'thematic' restrictions on the heavies they can take which undermine the viability of their 'theme forces' It's beside the point, but I don't agree that FM arcane vortex and shield guard would be horrendously OP. Even if it is, designing themes to be restrictive because of models you have yet to release makes my skin crawl in a very GW-esque way.
I agree it kinda sucks Mk 3 was not a complete game from release, but life is not fair and we are just gonna have to suck it up.
I agree that the original factions jacks do not break down quite as nicely as some of the later ones, but there are ways of coming up with categories, e.g:
1) Jacks with ranged weapons 2) jacks with only melee weapons 3) only light jacks 4) jacks with at least 1 open fist
on the point of GW-esque rules andreleases, that is just how games work, if you don't take into account future releases when you design stuff then you are asking for problems with stuff being broken down the line
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Post by octaviusmaximus on May 8, 2017 11:39:14 GMT
I do not think at this stage you can really compare the have's and have not's between factions when comparing their current theme forces. Give it another 6 - 12 months and see what everyone has once more have been released. oncomingstorm the reason why the Ret theme specifies non-Vyre jacks and casters is because field marshal shield guard and arcane vortex is not ok. Most factions have their 3 'base' theme forces. If we're supposed to wait 2 years from the release of mk3 to see 'balance', (which in this instance would really mean equitably distributed imbalance) then that's not OK. The 'reason' the theme breaks down like that is irrelevant - the point is that whereas Hordes factions (and Ret) have distinct subthemes to their heavies that allow for subthemes to be represented, Cygnar, Menoth, and Khador (not so much Cryx) do not. I will be quite surprised if we see a theme which restricts Cygnar to 'ironclad chassis' heavies only any time soon, because there's no meaningful reason to do so. Whereas other factions see 'thematic' restrictions on the heavies they can take which undermine the viability of their 'theme forces' It's beside the point, but I don't agree that FM arcane vortex and shield guard would be horrendously OP. Even if it is, designing themes to be restrictive because of models you have yet to release makes my skin crawl in a very GW-esque way. octaviusmaximus: I've seen Sloan in numerous pairing over the last several months. She's very viable, and offers a binary skew that wrecks a fair number of lists. She's also boring as all get out to play as, or against. Yes, Quicken can be on Ossyan. At that point, you're using two focus to cast it on him, which is often more important to keeping him alive, and taking an important and powerful upkeep off another unit. brilliant. And as I've mentioned many times, I'm not just a Ret player. I'm focusing on them right now (because I find them to be fun and interactive in Mk3, unlike my circle or my Cygnar) but they're not the only faction I play by any means. No such thing as a boring game, and Sloan is just too easy to beat by players who are trying. People around here just don't give you assassinations.
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Post by GumbaFish on May 8, 2017 11:48:56 GMT
For the original poster here is an idea, have you ever considered swapping armies with one of your opponents? I ask only because I wasn't sure if you have ever been on the other side of the H2 matchup and maybe since you know her well you may be able to see plays to defeat her. Conversely, your opponent having to play her may see she isn't as easy as they think and may also learn about some of her weaknesses by having to play her. Just an idea, it isn't something I have ever really done to be honest.
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