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Post by macdaddy on May 8, 2017 11:49:12 GMT
Stupid mary Sue caster with Mary sue design. I have seen plenty more factions in fiction that where both the good guys and still more interesting and complex in nature. Mary Sues are the worst.  Especially when people run them all the time. Haley 2 and Haley 3 pairing is so boring and common to see in my meta |
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Post by snotling on May 8, 2017 12:28:54 GMT
for me sr17 pretty much fixed h2.
two turn szenario wins are of the table, and I find attrition against her not to hard.
And storm lances are not very scary for me as legion player, with so many boostable guns and easy acces to blessed.
not saying cygnar or h2 is an easy matchup now, but it got a lot better
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Post by bobrek on May 8, 2017 12:34:31 GMT
For the original poster here is an idea, have you ever considered swapping armies with one of your opponents? I ask only because I wasn't sure if you have ever been on the other side of the H2 matchup and maybe since you know her well you may be able to see plays to defeat her. Conversely, your opponent having to play her may see she isn't as easy as they think and may also learn about some of her weaknesses by having to play her. Just an idea, it isn't something I have ever really done to be honest. This seems like a pretty good idea to me. Also, I think this has been briefly been touched upon, but I'll ask directly. Are you playing Haley 2 for 80%+ of your matches or are you using a variety of casters? If you are pretty much only playing Haley 2 maybe try using other warcasters for every other game? You might already be doing this though. If they are complaining about you using Haley 2 when you only use her intermittently then I would say they are being a bit unreasonable. If you are using her every game and roflstomping all the time I can kinda see why both you and they would benefit from the experience of trying a different caster. |
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SeBM
Junior Strategist
Posts: 102 
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Post by SeBM on May 8, 2017 14:09:17 GMT
It's weird to see Haley2 get so much hate, when a caster like Denny1 doesn't get a lot of flak while being absurdly strong. Also, Denny1 doesn't lose steam the way Haley2 does after her feat.
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spideredd
Junior Strategist
Summer Gamer
Posts: 588
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Post by spideredd on May 8, 2017 14:43:17 GMT
For the original poster here is an idea, have you ever considered swapping armies with one of your opponents? I ask only because I wasn't sure if you have ever been on the other side of the H2 matchup and maybe since you know her well you may be able to see plays to defeat her. Conversely, your opponent having to play her may see she isn't as easy as they think and may also learn about some of her weaknesses by having to play her. Just an idea, it isn't something I have ever really done to be honest. I've tried it, and it is a lot of fun and can be a little eye opening. My opponent thought my list was a little OP, so we swapped My opponent was using Siege and I was using pSevvy. He lost both games because he couldn't switch over to keeping as far back as possible. He got much better after that and started to play squishier casters so he would know how to beat the distance I use to keep pSevvy safe. |
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on May 8, 2017 15:19:13 GMT
The truth is rather difficult.
Cygnar as a faction and especially Haley2 are an incredibly difficult thing for PP to balance. The faction has, in my humble opinion the steepest learning curve of any faction and the highest skill ceiling.
It also appear to be the most played faction in the game and attracts a lot of new players.
This leads to a few problems. Mainly 90% of Cygnar players get smashed a lot and have no idea why everyone is complaining about balance. The few world class Haley2 players who have played her hundreds of times break the game at the very highest level. At the top Haley2 can be almost unbeatable, but is certainly not the easy "I Win" button, which most of the internet would make you believe.
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Post by macdaddy on May 8, 2017 15:38:38 GMT
The truth is rather difficult. Cygnar as a faction and especially Haley2 are an incredibly difficult thing for PP to balance. The faction has, in my humble opinion the steepest learning curve of any faction and the highest skill ceiling. It also appear to be the most played faction in the game and attracts a lot of new players. This leads to a few problems. Mainly 90% of Cygnar players get smashed a lot and have no idea why everyone is complaining about balance. The few world class Haley2 players who have played her hundreds of times break the game at the very highest level. At the top Haley2 can be almost unbeatable, but is certainly not the easy "I Win" button, which most of the internet would make you believe. This is pretty much the issue I have with cygnar too. Right now you have the people who say "oh yeah Haley 2 and 3 are just stupid good it's why I take them" and the other camp "Haley 2 died to guns!!! Haley 2 dies to cloud ignoring stuff!!! They obviously aren't unstoppable" You really can determine player level by how they respond to Haley 2 hate  I'm still not advocating for a nerf. I am undefeated against Haley 2 in MK3 mostly due to my cygnar drop. But she is a pain the but to play against. Every game I play is super challenging there a lot a really good player can do with her that's hard to prevent or catch. Edit: This is not a shot at anyone or meant to offend. |
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Post by Cheesebeard on May 8, 2017 19:02:29 GMT
I think we'll start seeing people taking a very serious look at Haley2 when D&C disappears, and she is in the majority of competitive pairings because she can play into anything – just bring an off-list for whatever your brand of Haley2 is less advantaged against, and you're solid.
Is she above average in power and versatility? Yeah; I think that's fairly clear to everyone who is familiar with her.
Is her relative power advantage beyond the norm enough to warrant an errata? Based on what happened to other power casters, I'd say yes – but PP has a history of favoring Cygnar in this kind of comparison (particularly the Haleys), so I'm not sure we'll see her comeuppance until it becomes [even more of] an issue. With a new theme on the horizon, and a scheduled errata next month, maybe we'll see something sooner than later.
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Post by Azuresun on May 8, 2017 22:50:49 GMT
Stupid mary Sue caster with Mary sue design. I have seen plenty more factions in fiction that where both the good guys and still more interesting and complex in nature. Her Mk2 incarnation did feel a bit like they let the fiction writers make the rules, didn't it? "OK, slowing down bullets Matrix-style is cool, so she should have Deceleration! And if she can slow down time with her feat, that means it should stop the enemy army from doing anything! Because they're frozen in time, obviously! That's fluffy, right? She's a once-a-generation prodigy, so obviously, she should go to FOCUS 8 when she becomes epic. Oh! Other epic warcasters got a bond, so she should get one as well! +2 movement and +1 focus cap aren't that bad (it's not like huge super jacks are coming out, right?) Let's throw Telekinesis in there, it's just a 2" place after all, how bad can it be? But she lost Arcane Shield, and it's not like Cygnar will get it from anywhere else, right? OK, let's throw DEF 16, being able to commandeer warjacks (it's in the fluff!) and a hand cannon in there. So that set of advantages means she should have the weakness of only having +5 warjack points, let's not go crazy here." If anyone ever doubts that CID and dynamic updates are a good thing, remind them that we had four years where PP seemed to be the only people on the planet who didn't consider her stupidly broken. |
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on May 9, 2017 7:54:36 GMT
At Least Haley 2 is no where near as bad as she was before they made blind shakeable in Mk 2, and took away her choosing your order of activations. Having been on the receiving end of the Anastasia/Gorman double blind combo, and Storm Lances that were def 15 arm 22 against ranged attacks (Arcane Shield, Deflection and Dirge).
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Post by Gamingdevil on May 9, 2017 9:18:28 GMT
Her Mk2 incarnation did feel a bit like they let the fiction writers make the rules, didn't it? "OK, slowing down bullets Matrix-style is cool, so she should have Deceleration! And if she can slow down time with her feat, that means it should stop the enemy army from doing anything! Because they're frozen in time, obviously! That's fluffy, right? She's a once-a-generation prodigy, so obviously, she should go to FOCUS 8 when she becomes epic. Oh! Other epic warcasters got a bond, so she should get one as well! +2 movement and +1 focus cap aren't that bad (it's not like huge super jacks are coming out, right?) Let's throw Telekinesis in there, it's just a 2" place after all, how bad can it be? But she lost Arcane Shield, and it's not like Cygnar will get it from anywhere else, right? OK, let's throw DEF 16, being able to commandeer warjacks (it's in the fluff!) and a hand cannon in there. So that set of advantages means she should have the weakness of only having +5 warjack points, let's not go crazy here." I'm still salty that Denny didn't go up to 8 focus |
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Post by dicebedamned on May 15, 2017 12:42:45 GMT
I've played into H2 several times now in MK3, and lost every time. Do I think she is OP, yes, a tad.
I think anytime the meta is building anti caster X lists as one of their drops, the caster is probably OP in some regard - either they themselves, or what they can do with the synergies of the faction/theme.
It cannot be denied that PP have a serious blind spot when it comes to Cygnar, especially Harley. I am starting to believe that the PP Cygnar player is not very good at the game, or that he does not have time to play much.
As for your issue of your friends complaining, it is natural. I complained to my friend about his Khador jack spam pre nerf, and my Circle playing Una2 friend pre nerf. At the end of the day it comes down to whether you need those friends to be having a good time for you to have a good time? If they are just randoms you meet in a tourney, then play what ever you like, if however they are part of your community, then it may be worth playing something else every now and then.
You could also suggest that they play your list and you play theirs. That way you will get to see if H2 is OP, and that may change how you feel one way or another. It is certainly what I tend to do when friends tell me my stuff is OP.
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Post by Cryptix on May 15, 2017 15:21:22 GMT
Yes, I hate playing against or with casters like Haley2 or Denny1. But not because they're OP per se. While they are OP, my problem is that they're BORING. In both cases, they literally sit behind an obstacle, cast buffs or debuffs through an arc node, and wait for their army to just kill everything. And that's not fun for either player.
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Post by macdaddy on May 15, 2017 15:30:05 GMT
Yes, I hate playing against or with casters like Haley2 or Denny1. But not because they're OP per se. While they are OP, my problem is that they're BORING. In both cases, they literally sit behind an obstacle, cast buffs or debuffs through an arc node, and wait for their army to just kill everything. And that's not fun for either player. Pretty much this, both are incredibly reliant on a feat that kicks your opponent in the balls for a turn and use the same general tactic over and over again. Its more boring than anything, but at least they are incredibly predictable and if you have any way to say "No" to their toolbox they just sit back and hope their unsupported army can fight you. For both if you can deny them spells and tank through two alphas or force them to feat defensively (aka first) you really can just play the slow grind as boring as it is. Another big weaknesses to the two sisters of evil is if you kill or disable their arc node. Once you do that you can just watch them either play too far forward and then you can go for an assassination or they sit back and stay irrelevant. |
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crimsyn
Junior Strategist
Posts: 389
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Post by crimsyn on May 15, 2017 15:49:53 GMT
Okay, first, I think you should play what you like to play. That's kind of the point of Warmachine. If Haley is your favourite caster, go ahead and play her. I know I like Harkevich, and it has been a little irritating to go from not being on anyone's radar to suddenly being the scourge of the meta and having a playstyle that so many people think is cheap and wrong (playing big stompy robots in a game called Warmachine)
That said, there are some things which I find legitimately make playing into Haley2 a frustrating experience.
1. Her feat means that unless you brought a gunline that can just stand still and shoot, you're going to have one turn where you're not doing anything. When I sit down for a two hour game that lasts four or five turns, facing down a hard control caster that effectively denies me the ability to do what I want for one of those turns kind of sucks.
2. I joke that I like to play against Haley2 because it is so rare that I see the front of my jacks, but her ability to TK and dominate one of your jacks and have it walk forward and turn around to subsequently take it in the back is frustrating. Especially if the jack somehow survives, only to be feated on and unable to turn around and punch things because of the feat. There is just something that irks people about having the other guy take control of their models and do something like that with them.
Haley2 is a very good caster. She is probably not egregiously OP, but her combination of feat and spells makes her frustrating to play against, as she pulls apart and whittles away at your army while you can't do much about it due to her feat.
Also, she has a bad reputation because she was so over the top in her first iteration. So some of the hate for her online is about previous versions of her in Mk.II
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Especially when people run them all the time. Haley 2 and Haley 3 pairing is so boring and common to see in my meta 
