redbone
Baby's First Wargame
Posts: 2
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Post by redbone on May 7, 2017 21:30:15 GMT
This is not a Cygnar-only thread, and I want to discuss this with you all.
I play Cygnar and like Haley 2.
Everyone says H2 is a good warcaster and I admit and like playing her.
but my friends even say "H2's Totally nuts" or "Too Overpowered" or "I don't want to face her on the table"
and with some joke : "Only Win-Thirsty maniacs play her in non-tournament games" so they feel something's unfair.
sometimes this hurts my feelings. I know H2 is depicted as a nemesis or whatever in the game scene.
but seriously, are they looking in their arsenal in-depth?
and no respect for a skill of which who's playing H2?
H2's definitely a good warcaster, but I think she's not a Big Red Button, which is very easy-to-apply-to-win.
I'm very confused about her reputation.
No army got absolutely good warcasters or countermeasure for H2?
I don't think so. If so, Only Cygnar would be seen in tourney.
So my question is :
(1) Do you think H2 reputation is exaggerated or not? How about in your playground or your tournament experience? Is playing H2 a shameful thing?
(2) There are so many armies, what's effective measure to counter H2?
(3) What is a Gaming skill you think that counts?
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on May 7, 2017 21:37:42 GMT
Well personally I have never encountered her in MKIII because of a lack of Cygnar at my meta. But I hear much of it is because the MKII version, who was just.....allot of masty words.
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spideredd
Junior Strategist
Summer Gamer
Posts: 588
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Post by spideredd on May 7, 2017 21:40:26 GMT
She isn't the monster that she once was. She is good to use because she has a deep toolbox. I can't really speak about facing her because I think I've faced her twice, and that was back in MKI.
I hear that the best way to counter her is experience. You need to know what she's capable of before you can beat her in the hands of a skilled opponent. I say skilled opponent because a new player really won't get the same mileage as an experienced player. She's not simple and she's not particularly sturdy.
As for a gaming skill, quick analysis and prioritisation of threats is probably the best, but that comes from experience.
Basically, play lots of games and you'll see for yourself.
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Post by welshhoppo on May 7, 2017 21:43:54 GMT
There is still a lot of dislike towards Haley2 from her MKII days. Back then, against certain factions just going second was enough to cost you the game.
soke grudges last a long time. She is no where near as bad now.
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Tucker
Junior Strategist
Posts: 103
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Post by Tucker on May 7, 2017 21:51:53 GMT
I find that I can easily build one of my Steamroller armies to have a good chance against Haley2, but I can just as easily build an army that she'll beat without effort. If I play the latter kind of army I have a bad time, and it can be frustrating for some players to not be able to play what you want and have at least some shot at winning.
I don't think that she's an overpowered warcaster, just one that can produce some really bad matchups for your opponent. She's like a well-rounded version of Sloan1, who tends to either annihilate opponents or get annihilated.
For what it's worth, I think Haley3 is the best warcaster in Cygnar, and can be much more frustrating to play against than Haley2.
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Post by W0lfBane on May 7, 2017 22:39:03 GMT
Since you're playing Cygnar you might as well just accept the fact that you are a filthy swan and embrace it. Teach them a lesson. How dare they? Merely because they're jealous that they don't have arcane shield on a stick,or stormlances, or the fricking stormwall, or thorn and his rediculous arcing shenanigans or the bs where you can electro leap by shooting your low def friendly models and kill theirs, or rangers and their mark target or the fricking control caster that no matter how often she gets nerfed she still remains competitive somehow. And more. Embrace the evil,become the heel you were always ment to be. Laugh maniacally as you crush your opponents under foot. Every story needs a good villian. Be the one your local meta needs.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on May 8, 2017 0:08:51 GMT
I got the same treatment in my meta. So I played Stryker2, Siege, Maddox, etc. Then I got complaints about Storm Lances. I dropped them. Then complaints about the Stormwall. Dropped. Now I play Stryker2 double sword knights. My fellow players continue to complain about Cygnar being OP. I have since decided to not care what they say. I'll play my lists as I like them, because it won't change the internet rumors about Cygnar. You should do the same.
If you like H2, I know I do, then you should play her and play her well. When they complain, explain that they are correct. Your win required no skill or planning or knowledge at all. Haley2 is a literal auto-win button, right? As soon as she hits the table, your opponent should just give up. There's just no point, because they can't win. Explain that to them. Then, maybe they'll let up. If you exhaust their ammunition, they'll have nothing left to say.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on May 8, 2017 0:43:51 GMT
I got the same treatment in my meta. So I played Stryker2, Siege, Maddox, etc. Then I got complaints about Storm Lances. I dropped them. Then complaints about the Stormwall. Dropped. Now I play Stryker2 double sword knights. My fellow players continue to complain about Cygnar being OP. I have since decided to not care what they say. I'll play my lists as I like them, because it won't change the internet rumors about Cygnar. You should do the same. How about tell them how to beat you? A feeling of OP begins when you feel like your at a disadvantage. Explain to your opponent your weaknesses and how they can take advantage of you. Not turn to turn of course, but I find that really helps, and makes them think of their own failures as opposed to how you screwed them over.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on May 8, 2017 1:07:51 GMT
I got the same treatment in my meta. So I played Stryker2, Siege, Maddox, etc. Then I got complaints about Storm Lances. I dropped them. Then complaints about the Stormwall. Dropped. Now I play Stryker2 double sword knights. My fellow players continue to complain about Cygnar being OP. I have since decided to not care what they say. I'll play my lists as I like them, because it won't change the internet rumors about Cygnar. You should do the same. How about tell them how to beat you? A feeling of OP begins when you feel like your at a disadvantage. Explain to your opponent your weaknesses and how they can take advantage of you. Not turn to turn of course, but I find that really helps, and makes them think of their own failures as opposed to how you screwed them over. Not a bad inclination. But with H2, it's hard to find specific weaknesses. She's super flexible. For weaknesses I can think of: 1. She's fragile. If you can shoot her, do it. Assassination is something always pressure the H2 player with. 2. Watch out for her many ways to move stuff around. TK, dominate, and TA are powerful threat extensions and control elements. 3. DO NOT back off during feat turn. If you move away from scenario during her feat, you lose. 4. That brings us to scenario. If you ignore Haley's scenario game, she'll beat you into the ground. 5. Take advantage of terrain. As the opponent, you need to account for as many threat angles as possible. She's complex as a caster, and requires experience to be good playing her and playing into her.
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Post by greytemplar on May 8, 2017 1:15:40 GMT
She is definitely a shadow of her former self, but she is still pretty insanely powerful.
The crazy thing is that, unlike the other insanely powerful casters that existed in Mk2, Haley is the only one to have survived. She's basically the 1 S+ tier caster who made it to Mk3 unscathed, likely because PP just had a hard on for cygnar.
Denny1 and Denny2 got collectively nerfed, both directly from the changes and from Cryx nerf's in general.
Harbinger had her feat, which wasn't really anywhere close to Haley2's feat(even after Haley's feat got errata'd), made almost entirely irrelevant. Both by having it's actual text changed and the disappearance of infantry from the Meta. Both changes combined to something much weaker than was necessary.
Basically, Haley2 still deserves some hate because she got what amounted to a free pass from PP's overzealous nerfing they threw around in mk3.
Not to mention, her fluff reads like really bad fan-fiction. Like, really bad.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on May 8, 2017 1:16:00 GMT
Not a bad inclination. But with H2, it's hard to find specific weaknesses. She's super flexible. Then I assume thats the "This Caster is OP" factor. Just unrelenting no problems and overall goodness. Id say if you can't give good solutions and overall tips how to defeat her then a caster truly is OP. Im not saying everything should have an easy counter but most of the "Weaknesses" you listed are strengths. Maybe its to do with the wording. Like I like Playing Harkevitch, and my suggestions to people new to him are to force a Defensive feat but don't commit. Like Minimize your early commitment, and without the feat allot of the bonus focus and hitting power is gone. Then grind through selectively.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on May 8, 2017 1:38:41 GMT
Not a bad inclination. But with H2, it's hard to find specific weaknesses. She's super flexible. Then I assume thats the "This Caster is OP" factor. Just unrelenting no problems and overall goodness. Id say if you can't give good solutions and overall tips how to defeat her then a caster truly is OP. Im not saying everything should have an easy counter but most of the "Weaknesses" you listed are strengths. Maybe its to do with the wording. Like I like Playing Harkevitch, and my suggestions to people new to him are to force a Defensive feat but don't commit. Like Minimize your early commitment, and without the feat allot of the bonus focus and hitting power is gone. Then grind through selectively. Okay, I'll elaborate on weaknesses. She doesn't like going into guns. She's fragile to assassination personally, and doesn't have much in her kit to help against them. Her feat doesn't hurt gunlines much, and she lost decel. She's pretty melee reliant, so guns can hurt her army. And counter control can mess with her, and make for really interesting games. Against other casters with movement shenanigans, the threat vectors go crazy. Out of activation movement can nullify her feat pretty well. If your stuff doesn't need to charge to get there, then you're good. For advice: try to give your opponent lots of bad options for control shenanigans. Use obstructions and models to make telekinesis hard to pull off. Pressure him to spend all his focus, and then assassinate the defenseless caster. Playing Haley makes it easy to spend too much focus. Also, if you can, try to take out Thorn whenever the oppurtunity may arise. If you can knock out his arc node, or disrupt him, or just kill him, do it. He's a majorly important piece. Without Thorn, Haley's options become limited. She instantly has to play way further up than she wants to.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on May 8, 2017 1:47:16 GMT
Okay, I'll elaborate on weaknesses. She doesn't like going into guns. She's fragile to assassination personally, and doesn't have much in her kit to help against them. Her feat doesn't hurt gunlines much, and she lost decel. She's pretty melee reliant, so guns can hurt her army. ....You know this still sounds OP. Like no caster should start off with "Well there is ONE thing that they don't like, so bring that". Like I can understand that some armies are hurt more than others with certain abilities, but with the assumption you go with a balanced breakfast (Some Melee, some Ranged in some capacity. Some armor crack and some anti infantr) a suggestion of "Bring something specific to counter her" means its an OP caster. Like as long as you have some Armor Cracking, make sure to reserve it with Harkevitch and engage him with whatever else. Just don't waste it on his feat turn.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on May 8, 2017 2:22:04 GMT
Haley has to win the game on the back of her control. She can outthreat enemies and force them to face the wrong way.
Guns, enemy control, enemy out of activation movement and general resilience from an opponent can make her lose steam.
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zich
Junior Strategist
Posts: 690
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Post by zich on May 8, 2017 4:58:54 GMT
Have they witnessed early-Mk2 Haley2? If not, offer them a game against her.
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