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Post by ForEver_Blight on May 16, 2017 19:58:47 GMT
You want a challenge? make "garbage casters" work. That's a challenge and rewarding and fun. quoted for truthiness
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Post by octaviusmaximus on May 16, 2017 21:32:13 GMT
As an occasional Haley player and an all the time competitive player I don't like playing against crappy casters. Games where my casters aren't challenged are *boring*. Im focused on interesting things g's like maximising efficiency of feat turns, using spells correctly and making up interesting strategy, while meanwhile on the other side of the table Kryssa is staring at her spells and feat and realises that she has *nothing* to do. What's the point of playing with garbage when you could be playing fun? As a person who advocated for a "garbage caster" for most of Mark 3 and now that people way better than me are trying him out they are realizing he isn't garbage this is kind of frustrating. Everyone playing the internet approved optimized list is bad and boring for the meta. People playing all kinds of different things, making "garbage casters" they love and enjoy work even despite the uphill fight is what makes this game exciting and engaging to me. Competitive gaming is cool and if you like efficiency maxing cool but don't sit there and complain about people who play a caster they like for fun just because it isn't challenging for you.. Haley 2 is a strong, abusive, swiss army knife that can just wreck anyone not prepared for her. Is she beatable? yes, but you cant be upset at your opponents for you playing a caster that just poops on most standard armies in the game. You want a challenge? make "garbage casters" work. That's a challenge and rewarding and fun. I like playing Haley 2 for fun. Any caster your not prepared for will wreck you. No, I'm not going to disrespect my opponent by handicapping myself for them. They have great stuff too, every faction does. Sometimes you can find a reason to use a niche caster for a purpose, but that isn't the same
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Post by macdaddy on May 16, 2017 21:45:45 GMT
Haley 2 exascerbates the issue though as she takes a lot of playing against to really adjust to her. She's an incredibly difficult caster to figure out how to face down but she makes you a better player by being so darn good at everything
Playing her for fun is ok if that what you enjoy go for it!
It's not disrespectful, it's challenging, it made me a better player and your opponent should enjoy playing against a new caster and appreciate you trying to make them work. It's also not a handicap it's playing something different. The challenge isnt playing with a caster that is so bad your opponent shouldn't lose. it's making a caster that people say is bad work even if it's really only at one thing or if that thing is niche. I'm honestly just really confused how it's disrespectful. If I ever dropped Mohsar into you I would hope you wouldn't feel disrespected.
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Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578
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Post by Juris on May 16, 2017 21:48:16 GMT
This is not a Cygnar-only thread, and I want to discuss this with you all. I play Cygnar and like Haley 2. Everyone says H2 is a good warcaster and I admit and like playing her. but my friends even say "H2's Totally nuts" or "Too Overpowered" or "I don't want to face her on the table" and with some joke : "Only Win-Thirsty maniacs play her in non-tournament games" so they feel something's unfair. sometimes this hurts my feelings. I know H2 is depicted as a nemesis or whatever in the game scene. but seriously, are they looking in their arsenal in-depth? and no respect for a skill of which who's playing H2? H2's definitely a good warcaster, but I think she's not a Big Red Button, which is very easy-to-apply-to-win. I'm very confused about her reputation. No army got absolutely good warcasters or countermeasure for H2? I don't think so. If so, Only Cygnar would be seen in tourney. So my question is : (1) Do you think H2 reputation is exaggerated or not? How about in your playground or your tournament experience? Is playing H2 a shameful thing? (2) There are so many armies, what's effective measure to counter H2? (3) What is a Gaming skill you think that counts? The solution to this is actually surprisingly simple and elegant. Challenge them to a game where they play your list and you play a list that you build with their faction. Trounce them. They shut up permanently, and either get good or get humble.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on May 16, 2017 22:24:09 GMT
Haley 2 exascerbates the issue though as she takes a lot of playing against to really adjust to her. She's an incredibly difficult caster to figure out how to face down but she makes you a better player by being so darn good at everything Playing her for fun is ok if that what you enjoy go for it! It's not disrespectful, it's challenging, it made me a better player and your opponent should enjoy playing against a new caster and appreciate you trying to make them work. It's also not a handicap it's playing something different. The challenge isnt playing with a caster that is so bad your opponent shouldn't lose. it's making a caster that people say is bad work even if it's really only at one thing or if that thing is niche. I'm honestly just really confused how it's disrespectful. If I ever dropped Mohsar into you I would hope you wouldn't feel disrespected. I drop many casters, but I'm not going to drop a bad caster that I don't think has some ability to compete. Taking a Kryssa and hoping to do well is simply a fools errand. The purpose of the game is to win, the point of the game is to have fun. I know that, my opponents know that. Maybe disrespectful is the wrong word, its mainly that if an opponent only plays garbo casters who have no chance of winning into me, then I don't get the point. Dropping a bad caster into someone feels like you are telling them "you can't challenge me at my best, so here you go. Have some Sturgis tier fun". Its fun to play a slap fight between bad casters, but attempting to beat players with a bad caster just seems like a recipe for being annoyed.
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on May 16, 2017 22:43:12 GMT
I mean, what's the challenge in making a low-grade caster work when you aren't playing into a power caster? By the sound of it, I'm providing a service to my fellow players when I drop H2. Then they can try to beat me with whatever jank they have.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on May 16, 2017 22:46:17 GMT
Now I get why Warmachine Has a Player retention problem.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on May 16, 2017 22:51:29 GMT
Now I get why Warmachine Has a Player retention problem. Passive aggressiveness has something to do with it, I'm sure.
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Post by macdaddy on May 16, 2017 22:53:08 GMT
Paericularly what casters other than Karyssa do you consider garbage? Just so I can see where you are coming from better
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isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
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Post by isotope on May 16, 2017 23:01:52 GMT
I mean, what's the challenge in making a low-grade caster work when you aren't playing into a power caster? By the sound of it, I'm providing a service to my fellow players when I drop H2. Then they can try to beat me with whatever jank they have. Theres a difference between a dark horse and a trash caster. A well played dark horse well practiced will beat a avg h2 player.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on May 16, 2017 23:03:59 GMT
Paericularly what casters other than Karyssa do you consider garbage? Just so I can see where you are coming from better There are a couple in each faction. Essentially you have: 1.Top tier casters who are generally applicable in most situation 2.Niche casters who become strong when the right confluence of list and meta appears. 3. Fun casters who bring some strange stuff which will win you games if your opponent isn't ready for it. 4. Bad casters who bring a trick that isn't worth the investment and are highly Impacted by meta. You also have casters who aren't that *bad*, but are dropped down a rank because another caster simply does what they do better. The bottom 2 ranks are the ones that you really can't make any kind of argument for taking seriously unless you aren't planning on winning reliably. Any caster can win any game, but some casters just give you better tools for that. Im on a train, so I cant list everything in Cygnar (my main faction), but among the bottom 2 tiers are casters like: Fun Casters: Constance Blaize, Darius, Caine 2, Kraye, Haley 1. Bad Casters: Siege, Caine 1, Sturgis, Nemo 2
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Post by Stormsmith Dropout on May 16, 2017 23:39:00 GMT
I mean, what's the challenge in making a low-grade caster work when you aren't playing into a power caster? By the sound of it, I'm providing a service to my fellow players when I drop H2. Then they can try to beat me with whatever jank they have. Theres a difference between a dark horse and a trash caster. A well played dark horse well practiced will beat a avg h2 player. I agree, however I believe we were discussing trash casters, which are the ones that a player might take pride in making work. And trash casters can become dark horses if exploited in certain ways, and then practiced with regularly. WMH is a very social game, and metas can have a kind of hierarchy. If you almost never win, then you are a little fish. Everyone starts as a little fish. Later, you might become a really big fish, where you win as often as lose, or even win much more than lose. That comes with practice and dedication, of course. While being a big fish, it is assumed that small fish are not much of a threat, so a handicap may be sportsmanlike. Example: I'm playing against a new player 25 points down. Then, that player has a real fighting chance. If I win this game, it helps my self esteem, but might really hamper the other player's. Because I beat him with an arm behind my back. If he beats me, then I might lose a little face, and he might feel good. It depends on how the other player views beating up a one armed opponent. Now then, what if 2 players of similar skill level (2 fish of similar size) square off normally? Well, the winner might become a bit 'bigger', and the loser might become a bit 'smaller'. But what if player1 uses a weak caster, and player2 uses a strong caster? If player1 wins, he has shown much more skill than normal, defeating his opponent while handicapped. If player2 is victorious, then he gets very little out of it. The win was, in some ways, expected. I'll put it simply, I don't feel any need to handicap myself in order to feel like I am playing well. WMH is plenty challenging on its own. If you bring a shoddy weapon to a duel and get killed because of it, then that is on you. As for myself, I'll bring my best.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on May 16, 2017 23:49:16 GMT
What makes a caster good or bad is beyond the scope of a single game and what makes a player win or lose is not only due to "more or less skill".
I beat James Moorehouse because Krueger came forward for an assassination and failed 2 Tks. I was good, but I was inexperienced and he should have won. Does this mean I was more skilled than him? Of course not.
Sturgis winning against Haley 2 does make the Sturgis player more skilled, there are many reasons that a Haley player could lose where she should win.
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isotope
Junior Strategist
Posts: 634
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Post by isotope on May 16, 2017 23:50:34 GMT
Paericularly what casters other than Karyssa do you consider garbage? Just so I can see where you are coming from better There are a couple in each faction. Essentially you have: 1.Top tier casters who are generally applicable in most situation 2.Niche casters who become strong when the right confluence of list and meta appears. 3. Fun casters who bring some strange stuff which will win you games if your opponent isn't ready for it. 4. Bad casters who bring a trick that isn't worth the investment and are highly Impacted by meta. You also have casters who aren't that *bad*, but are dropped down a rank because another caster simply does what they do better. The bottom 2 ranks are the ones that you really can't make any kind of argument for taking seriously unless you aren't planning on winning reliably. Any caster can win any game, but some casters just give you better tools for that. Im on a train, so I cant list everything in Cygnar (my main faction), but among the bottom 2 tiers are casters like: Fun Casters: Constance Blaize, Darius, Caine 2, Kraye, Haley 1. Bad Casters: Siege, Caine 1, Sturgis, Nemo 2 I keep hearing this Caine 1 is a bad caster. So not true. Especially with SR17 and all these dude spam list themes. Walk up, kill 30 dudes, tp back, ace gives stealth. Then you got a 13-15" d6 slam depending on which attachment you bring and some pretty good upkeeps.
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Post by octaviusmaximus on May 17, 2017 0:01:44 GMT
There are a couple in each faction. Essentially you have: 1.Top tier casters who are generally applicable in most situation 2.Niche casters who become strong when the right confluence of list and meta appears. 3. Fun casters who bring some strange stuff which will win you games if your opponent isn't ready for it. 4. Bad casters who bring a trick that isn't worth the investment and are highly Impacted by meta. You also have casters who aren't that *bad*, but are dropped down a rank because another caster simply does what they do better. The bottom 2 ranks are the ones that you really can't make any kind of argument for taking seriously unless you aren't planning on winning reliably. Any caster can win any game, but some casters just give you better tools for that. Im on a train, so I cant list everything in Cygnar (my main faction), but among the bottom 2 tiers are casters like: Fun Casters: Constance Blaize, Darius, Caine 2, Kraye, Haley 1. Bad Casters: Siege, Caine 1, Sturgis, Nemo 2 I keep hearing this Caine 1 is a bad caster. So not true. Especially with SR17 and all these dude spam list themes. Walk up, kill 30 dudes, tp back, ace gives stealth. Then you got a 13-15" d6 slam depending on which attachment you bring and some pretty good upkeeps. I can do the same, more reliably, with other pieces such as Storm Lances. They are also less vulnerable to getting killed and losing you the game. Also, no player worth their salt is going to throw 30 non stealth infantry models at Caine 1 without a plan. His spells are ok, but are done better elsewhere in faction.
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