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Post by allinontrolls on Apr 1, 2018 15:45:37 GMT
In my opinion the game is really at a healthy level. Their are so many casters currently that are playable like never before. I started playing a lot of games and every game I lost their were several mistakes on my part so I could have won most of them if played correctly. I know some tournament games back in mk2 vs haley2 on incursion where I run turn 1 walked cause of Feat turn 2 and put my stuff back into the box turn 3 cause I lost on scenario without anything I could do differently.
Their are a lot of people who are writing 10x more in forums then playing the game and thinking about the "perfect" list instead of realizing that their are no perfect list just lists that are perfectly for your personal play style.
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snoozer
Junior Strategist
Posts: 467
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Post by snoozer on Apr 1, 2018 15:57:48 GMT
I can only agree an all this, wise words Gentlemen!
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joedj
Junior Strategist
Posts: 513
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Post by joedj on Apr 1, 2018 16:27:51 GMT
"I'm secretly hoping one day we have enough releases for a Pyg theme." Which might include a CID that includes Burrowers, please! There is a certain comfort in having your faction(s) 'dialed in', the 'best' build/tactics known. Initiation of MK3 shook this up for each player/faction and even now, almost two years in, there is still not consensus on the absolute best list per warlock or Theme. That's pretty amazing considering our collective gamer mentality of min/maxing to 'ideal' for competitiveness. TB's alone have 18x4 warlock/Theme combos. I know for certain I have not played more than 30% of these. Themes do limit us somewhat by allowing(?) for rejection of some combos as untenable due to lack of an answer(s) to the common competitive problems (High ARM, recur, incorporeal, spam, etc.). There are some clearly strong(er) combos in each faction, but so far PP monitoring appears to be catching significantly powerful outliers to prevent stagnation within a faction and especially to prevent rejection of the new. Sometimes not catching these as quick as some would like (including myself when spam like G3+Slayers, M2+Nomads has minimal diversity of builds AND is highly competitive, but has really poor replay value or interest from a non-tournament opponent's viewpoint)...CID as it relates within Themes also appears to be adjusting weaker veteran models, with mixed results/reviews. The Constant Change of MK3 may not be appreciated by some. (I did not own Warroom until about 9 months into MK3 and now find it/me inseparable!) I find it mildly sad that some MK1-2 WMH veterans within our venue quit after the transition to MK3. Loss of comfort from that list(s) that used to work so well? The Constant Change doesn't seem to allow for resting on one's laurels for too long, good! I believe many of us, veterans, are patiently waiting for that tweak that will make a Theme/model set more adequately competitive. As for a game with overall replay value? Theme-enhanced or Theme-limited New War is amazingly complex as long as you have a field of opponents with sufficiently diverse army builds.
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Post by cayterpius on Apr 4, 2018 15:20:57 GMT
I still have to ask, are themes being played for the theme benefits or for the free points?
To put it another way, would you play in theme if there were no free points on offer?
What would happen if playing out of theme still gave you 2 free solos? Would you keep chasing themes?
I just don't see anyone really talking up any of the particular benefits at all. In fact, have seen many posts and games where players dont even use the SotN snow drifts. Most theme list discussion seems to focus more on maximising the free stuff than anything else.
Are there theme benefits that make you want to play the theme?
Would non theme lists getting 2 free things be popular or broken?
Not salty. Not nostalgic. Just curious.
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Apr 4, 2018 15:56:53 GMT
I still have to ask, are themes being played for the theme benefits or for the free points? To put it another way, would you play in theme if there were no free points on offer? What would happen if playing out of theme still gave you 2 free solos? Would you keep chasing themes? I just don't see anyone really talking up any of the particular benefits at all. In fact, have seen many posts and games where players dont even use the SotN snow drifts. Most theme list discussion seems to focus more on maximising the free stuff than anything else. Are there theme benefits that make you want to play the theme? Would non theme lists getting 2 free things be popular or broken? Not salty. Not nostalgic. Just curious.
SotN is a good example of a theme with bad benefits. That said we still play it, because it provides an interesting array of models. It's also interesting from a fluff perspective, it means you're using models that tie in well together.
If playing out of theme gave you free solos then most people would play out of theme and frankly the game would be poorer for it. Yes themes getting 2 free things would break the game. List building would go back to taking x every time because it's the best option.
Theme Benefits do generally make me want to play in themes because they offer tools to help in certain matchups. It's really nice to have the Take down option for instance or to have the free upkeeps in SotN option which makes us consider otherwise bad casters like Jarl or Madrak3.
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Post by cayterpius on Apr 4, 2018 16:47:09 GMT
If everyone would still play themes without the free points ... then I'm not understanding why there are free points made available. I don't get what PP's purpose is with that part of it.
That's the thing that, to me at least, has nothing to do with aesthetic or fluff thematics (which is the point of themes, right?) and also has nothing to do with the mechanics of "limited selection of thematic models" gets you these "army wide or game affecting benefits" that are also either thematic or try to cover a gap of the limitations (e.g. Sons of Brag hard hitting melee unit to balance all the ranged units you'll be taking).
If you're doing it for the Grievous Wounds and +1 to start and LOS through friendly models and 2" additional deployment and snowdrifts, etc. then why do you need the free points?
I'd love to play whatever I want vs a theme list and the difference being "oh you get some of these cool effects and it's fluffy and there's a bit of an edge, awesome" instead of "oh, I brought 75 points and you're playing with 100, awesome..." Y'know?
I mean is PP saying that there are combos out of theme that are equitable to playing 10-20 points down? If so, I don't see it. What's our busted combo that someone needs an extra 12 points to have a fair fight against?
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Post by allinontrolls on Apr 4, 2018 18:58:09 GMT
I am not sure if a discussion about "what if..." or "without free points.." really helps. PP made the decission that they wanted the game to be played in themes. Some people like that others don't. I would be really supprised if PP will change their policy so all discussion about what would happen if X would be changed can not be answered.
For trolls i would assume that if their were no theme forces we would see a lot of lists with mulg and champions.
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Post by greibach on Apr 4, 2018 19:37:19 GMT
I mean is PP saying that there are combos out of theme that are equitable to playing 10-20 points down? If so, I don't see it. What's our busted combo that someone needs an extra 12 points to have a fair fight against? I think that they basically are saying exactly this, or rather that they are planning to leverage themes to create more powerful but necessarily niche models. For example, the Battle Bears are extremely powerful for their points and the Fire Eaters aren't bad either, but they only go in one decent theme and in the case of FE's one bad theme. You can release a powerful model for a theme that lacks flexibility without breaking the game but if free points were out the window then they really do have to balance every possible interaction and we saw in the end of Mk2 that it often lead to very stagnant metas with the same couple of models/casters dominating each faction. I believe that this is the healthiest way forward if we want main factions to continue to grow. It also allows for the so-called mini factions like Cyriss or Grymkin to have a better chance of competing because you only have to balance the limited releases of those factions against other factions' (theme) limited subsets. I believe PP wants us to be extra incentivized to play in theme so that they can just assume you always will be in theme when they are balancing new models and I don't think that's a bad plan in all honesty.
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Post by Trollock on Apr 4, 2018 20:18:57 GMT
PP wants you to play themes because it is WAY easier to balance the game if every model in a faction can not be played with every other model in the faction. Rök with Doomy 2 is the perfect example. They have broken good synergy, but that is OK, since IF you want to play them together, you either have to play non-themed, or at least in a theme that does not give you any good benefits or free points for playing the list you want to play. Rök effectively costs 19+13=32 points if you decide to play outside theme. You lose 13 free points by skipping theme. He might be broken as F with Doomy 2, but he is not broken enough to be worth paying 32 points for. Another reason why they want you to always play themes is because it is way easier for a new player to build a list and to understand an opponents list if all lists consist of ~20 options rather than ~200 options. The final reason is that if you can only bring a limited number of models, you need multiples of those models. That means they get to sell more models, and they make more money. PP is a company, and if they do not make more money they will go out of business and there will be no more warmachine. Themes help them get money out of crusty old gamers that have a pretty big collection, since those guys now need double champions and double fennblades and double X. Them making money means they will keep producing this great game we all love, so that is also a good thing... even if it costs us money...
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joedj
Junior Strategist
Posts: 513
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Post by joedj on Apr 5, 2018 0:37:28 GMT
If I COULD take Fenns in SotN I would 'cause super-fast or harder-hitting Fenns under an NK Elder aura would be an excellent max/min choice, (previously prevalent list strategy in MK1&2). I wouldn't be able to stop myself, it's in my nature. Thank goodness for MK3 Theme limitations that save me from myself and MEGA power gaming
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Post by cayterpius on Apr 5, 2018 3:49:51 GMT
I just want to take Fire Eaters, Warders and Runeshapers in the same list. Because I like them.
PP says that's fine but I will lose 90% of the time.
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Post by Trollock on Apr 5, 2018 6:53:01 GMT
I just want to take Fire Eaters, Warders and Runeshapers in the same list. Because I like them. PP says that's fine but I will lose 90% of the time. For some one who insists on limiting his list composition to play "only the things you like" you sure seem to care a lot about who wins the game. If you just want to play the random models you like you CAN do that. The price you pay is a lower chance of winning. Would you prefer that list building was not a part of the competitive aspect? You seem to suggest that you should be able to bring any combination of models and still have the same chance of winning as any one else. Shouldnt there be an aspect of the game where you try finding not only the best models available but also the best COMBINATION of models available? PP has made it easy for us. If you combine your models in the way proscribed in a theme force you get 3 free solos. That is a big synergy effect that is very obvious and easy to spot. There are other effects like the synergy between your caster and the models you bring, or between two models in a list (like champions and the northkin elder) that are less obvious, but still pretty obvious. Then there are even more subtle things like the synergy between your two lists and how they dictate match ups. List building is an important part of the game in short. You seem to suggest that just because you happen to like the 3 random units Fire Eaters, Runeshapers (who are currently a bit under tuned) and Warders you should be allowed to play them in the same list and that list MUST be as competitive as any other list? That is literally impossible unless every single unit did the exact same thing, and i am certain that is not what you want. As long as different units do different things there will be good combinations and bad combinations. Picking 3 units out of a hat and playing them is allowed, but it will probably not be optimal. Why do you think this is a problem?
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joedj
Junior Strategist
Posts: 513
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Post by joedj on Apr 5, 2018 7:38:31 GMT
I just want to take Fire Eaters, Warders and Runeshapers in the same list. Because I like them. PP says that's fine but I will lose 90% of the time. As long as different units do different things there will be good combinations and bad combinations. Picking 3 units out of a hat and playing them is allowed, but it will probably not be optimal. Why do you think this is a problem? In MK1 and 2 I COULD do this (and did often with a random army list generator) and my skill/experience with the game would often offset even a bad 'pull'. Skill and experience still allows me to play non-optimal lists in MK3 with a chance, but that chance decreases significantly when facing a larger army with a decent theme benefit added (depending on opponent's skill level of course). I do not view this as a problem, but an introduced MK3 limitation (or advantage) system that has some of my TB collection literally under my bed, until such a time as CID, hopefully, gives me a reason to field them with confidence. The phrase 'picking 3 units out of a hat' reminds me of Kriel Company, where ranged units/models was the one particular characteristic chosen, with poor consideration for models/army balanced melee destructive capability. In that Theme's regard, not optimal combos currently IS a problem.
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Arcaux
Junior Strategist
Posts: 724
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Post by Arcaux on Apr 5, 2018 8:14:02 GMT
As long as different units do different things there will be good combinations and bad combinations. Picking 3 units out of a hat and playing them is allowed, but it will probably not be optimal. Why do you think this is a problem? In MK1 and 2 I COULD do this (and did often with a random army list generator) and my skill/experience with the game would often offset even a bad 'pull'. Skill and experience still allows me to play non-optimal lists in MK3 with a chance, but that chance decreases significantly when facing a larger army with a decent theme benefit added (depending on opponent's skill level of course). I do not view this as a problem, but an introduced MK3 limitation (or advantage) system that has some of my TB collection literally under my bed, until such a time as CID, hopefully, gives me a reason to field them with confidence. The phrase 'picking 3 units out of a hat' reminds me of Kriel Company, where ranged units/models was the one particular characteristic chosen, with poor consideration for models/army balanced melee destructive capability. In that Theme's regard, not optimal combos currently IS a problem. Are people really storing large numbers of models "under their beds" untouched?
In MK3 I've played runeshapers, Swamp Trolls, Blitzers, Burrowers, Bushwackers, scouts and I'm currently even using a Skinner in my competitive pair.
If people have models that aren't seeing the table then that is a problem with their list building rather than with themes and models. Some are underpowered but still often fill a role because of themes.
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Post by allinontrolls on Apr 5, 2018 12:02:43 GMT
In MK1 and 2 I COULD do this (and did often with a random army list generator) and my skill/experience with the game would often offset even a bad 'pull'. Skill and experience still allows me to play non-optimal lists in MK3 with a chance, but that chance decreases significantly when facing a larger army with a decent theme benefit added (depending on opponent's skill level of course). I do not view this as a problem, but an introduced MK3 limitation (or advantage) system that has some of my TB collection literally under my bed, until such a time as CID, hopefully, gives me a reason to field them with confidence. The phrase 'picking 3 units out of a hat' reminds me of Kriel Company, where ranged units/models was the one particular characteristic chosen, with poor consideration for models/army balanced melee destructive capability. In that Theme's regard, not optimal combos currently IS a problem. Are people really storing large numbers of models "under their beds" untouched?
In MK3 I've played runeshapers, Swamp Trolls, Blitzers, Burrowers, Bushwackers, scouts and I'm currently even using a Skinner in my competitive pair.
If people have models that aren't seeing the table then that is a problem with their list building rather than with themes and models. Some are underpowered but still often fill a role because of themes.
I would totaly agree. A lot of people wanna play the new stuff and never consider old models for their lists. Take the NL Masters. Who would suggest a grim2 list with double bushwackers to be competetive and then it won the tournament. Every troll model is playable in a theme list. Knowing and playing your list is way more important then buying and playing the newest/hottest stuff.
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