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Post by cayterpius on Mar 13, 2018 18:15:30 GMT
HHH now in KC.
Is that all the difference it needed to see play?
Seems to me we now have combined arms SotN and ranged only SotN (KC).
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Post by grabsnikk on Mar 14, 2018 4:17:25 GMT
HHH now in KC. Is that all the difference it needed to see play? Seems to me we now have combined arms SotN and ranged only SotN (KC). Honestly the Hooch Hauler does almost nothing to help the Kriel Company Theme crack armour so the theme still won't see competitive play. If this change was so that the HHH would be available in more than one theme in order to sell more then its most likely going to be a fail as the theme still is not competitive even with the HHH. |
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jarrow
Junior Strategist
Posts: 274 
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Post by jarrow on Mar 14, 2018 6:40:41 GMT
Grissel2 and Grim's may choose KC over SotN if they want to play full ranged list. They want to activate first and therefor gain advantage from KC's free LOS over SotN's free upkeeps.
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Post by beardmonk on Mar 15, 2018 15:01:30 GMT
Oddly many of the other faction forums are having a very similar conversation. Regardless of the Caster, the lists just seem to build themselves these days which means less theory crafting etc. its become very cookie cutter. And the games have become very similar. Same sort of lists, same few objectives
TBH over the last few months I have been playing a lot more Malifaux than WM/H mainly because the huge variety of win conditions and the fact that you don't bring "an army" to the table, you bring a faction and then decide your list once you set up the board and encounter. So much more to do and work out.
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Post by Trollock on Mar 15, 2018 15:23:43 GMT
Oddly many of the other faction forums are having a very similar conversation. Regardless of the Caster, the lists just seem to build themselves these days which means less theory crafting etc. its become very cookie cutter. And the games have become very similar. Same sort of lists, same few objectives TBH over the last few months I have been playing a lot more Malifaux than WM/H mainly because the huge variety of win conditions and the fact that you don't bring "an army" to the table, you bring a faction and then decide your list once you set up the board and encounter. So much more to do and work out. I couldnt disagree more. The number of different lists and casters that actually see play nowadays is WAY higher than in MK2. Back then you COULD build the list exactly how you wanted, but it was very obvious that you SHOULDNT. There were like 10 casters that were represented in over 50% of lists, and each caster had usually only one list build. Sure there were minor variations, but Asphyxious 2 played Banes and so on. Nowadays you see way more casters and factions represented at the top tables. Not only that, but many (most?) casters have more than one build. I mean you can see Grim 1 in PoD with all beast or you can see him in SotN with lots of infantry. Not just minor variations, but a different theme means an entirely new experience. You are correct that the variations possible within each theme is limited. Most SotN lists look similar. Double FEs, double Bears and then add either champs, raiders or longriders. There are however big differences when playing with/against different casters in the same theme. Horgle 2 with Bears, FEs and Long riders is a vastly different experience than Borka 1 with Bears, FEs and Champions. The battle groups probably differ significantly, and presenting ARM 22 long riders as "the main dish" is very different from presenting DEF 16 spell immune champions. Themes HAVE limited the options you have available for each caster once you have selected a theme. There are usually a couple of fairly different builds with each caster in each theme, but compared to the basically unlimited options offered by a non-theme list it is very restrictive, right? BUT themes have also made you ACTUALLY play many different kinds of lists. Even though you were allowed to play any model you wanted with Asphyxious 2 in MK2, you always played Banes and Biles and arc nodes. Now however, you can see him (well, perhaps you dont see Asphyxious 2 very much any longer...) with Banes OR Satyxis OR Trolls OR Mechanithralls OR jack spam. Granted that most casters do not actually play well in every theme, but they usually have more than one, so instead of always seeing only one flavor of each caster (though with minor variations) you now see many totally different flavors. Instead of having "unlimited" options in theory (but only really one in practice) you now have several options that all actually work. List building has gotten more boring though, that cant be denied. Instead of tweaking the same type of list endlessly (which was fun) you now have more viable options, but they are more "pre-made". Once you have built a couple PoD lists with one caster, you usually dont find much joy in building more PoD lists with that caster. Instead though, we have gotten a game that is way more varied on the table, because you see so many different flavors of so many different casters. Im not saying the game is strictly better now than in MK2, but i have no wish at all to go back to that game, where there was almost no reason for me not to play the same four casters in minor variations of one list each. Now i can play ALL the troll casters, and most of them work in several of the themes. I have played hundreds of games of MK3 trolls and i am no where near to test all the things i want to test! |
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Post by greenjello on Mar 15, 2018 16:59:26 GMT
Oddly many of the other faction forums are having a very similar conversation. Regardless of the Caster, the lists just seem to build themselves these days which means less theory crafting etc. its become very cookie cutter. And the games have become very similar. Same sort of lists, same few objectives I think this is more a function of how forums with a few posters turn into echo chambers. The conversations often seem to turn around the same "truths" that are considered to be absolute and unwavering. If somebody steps outside of the "solutions" presented the forums are usually quick to correct them, and get them back in line. However, I find reality to be a bit messier. Nor do I appear to be alone in this. There was an interesting series on a now defunct Warmachine blog about one man's attempts to play all the "bad" casters in Cyngar. I believe he selected Strker1, Darius (pre-colossal), and Kraye? He then proceed to take them to top tournaments, and pulled in some impressive results. For that matter, in mkII Kraye was often considered to be a bad Cygnar caster until somebody took masters, and then the forum truth changed, and he was obviously one of the best in faction. The truth is that anybody can post on these forums, and you just don't know who's an amazing player, and who's a T.R.O.L.L.O.C.K. pretending to be human.  It also can take a lot of work to find things that others have overlooked for various reasons, and understand the situations where they can shine. Generally most people will take the forum wisdom, and repeat all the same stuff, and get the same results. It's expensive to buy the unloved models, and time consuming to practice with them. And when you do, and find something good, you'll likely find yourself shouted down. I remember one thread in the old mkII forums where The Glen (who had written most of the Cygnar tactics, and won a number of tournaments) was trying to explain how the Trencher Cannon could be a good piece. This went on for several pages until he finally pointed out he had written all those tactics, and won a number of tournaments. Even that wasn't enough to get the guys to shut up about it. Reminds me of the quote "Never expect a man to acknowledge a truth if his position requires him to lack understanding." |
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Post by Phlushot on Mar 15, 2018 20:53:46 GMT
I don't really agree at all that lists have gotten too cookie cutter (in trolls at least). It seems like I am constantly seeing variations on lists. Storm of the North especially seems to lend itself to a variety of different builds since it has a nice variety of models available. I also agree with Trollock above when he said that you have include the variety you see in casters being taken in different themes. Bearka PoD is a very different animal from Bearka SotN and even within those themes you see different loadouts for him. For example Tim Banky's PoD list vs Chris Dancocks SotN list... both Bearka and yet completely different. When did you see anything like that in Mk2?
I started late Mk2 and didn't pick up trolls until Mk3 started. My understanding is late in Mk2 the Troll game consisted of basically Calandra EE and Doomy Runes if you wanted to be competitive. Is there even any consensus these days about who the top casters are in trolls? Bearka, Kolgrimma, Grim1, Madrak1 are all seeing extensive play but they're also either new or recently modified. Grissel2, Calandra, Gunny are all also excellent just not new and shiny and the rest I didn't mention are almost all perfectly viable. So you've traded some list variety for the ability to put a ton of viable casters on the table. Seems like a decent trade to me.
As far as more themes... I'd love to see more elements represented. Desert, Fire, Air, Jungle, Earth... I'm game for them all.
Oh and greenjello Mk2 Kraye was NEVER seen as one of the best casters in Cygnar. He certainly had his champions and snowflakes who argued for him but was never even close to the same tier as Haley2 and the like.
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gdnerd
Junior Strategist
Posts: 656
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Post by gdnerd on Mar 15, 2018 20:56:53 GMT
I agree with Trollock's view here. Admittedly, I think I discuss things in absolutes so much and make axiomatic statements as to how you should be playing but the truth is everything is mutable. I might like Kolgrima/Madrak1, but I am constantly having to evaluate both Borkas, Grim1, Gunnbjorn, both Grissels, and Doomshapers 2 & 3 every time there is a new release or small shift in the meta. That's WAY healthier than pre-theme MKIII and definitely healthier than MKII. Sure you get put in these theme silos where the options are limited but even if there's only a few unit composition options per theme, Merc/Minion options added are a great way to put the final customization into a list. I'm very happy with where the game is and the options that are before me at the moment.
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Post by deathbymelancholy on Mar 21, 2018 15:28:10 GMT
My two lists are Mad3 and Ragnor and I don't see them in them in the competitive play discussion. I think a lot of it comes down to player, mindset, groupthink, and echochamber. Player mindset that posts the most is "to win competitively", mindset is "what is dominant", groupthink and echochamber build out of that. My wins are rarely as easy as Mad1 champs windmill slam hahahahaha, but I have more fun. I don't build lists that I thnik are going to get roflstomped, but I also rarely build THE list du jour.
I have found the forums here much more valuable and open then any of the other social media options for the most part. But I think from a balance standpoint the game is becoming much closer across the factions. I mean, who's the "bad" caster in Trolls? Jarl? Grissel? Even they have their lists and moments if you want to buckle down and focus.
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Post by deviantcad on Mar 21, 2018 19:04:20 GMT
I think Trollock touched on this aleady, but I think he made a great point. If people are looking to take the strongest list those lost are going to look similar at least at the core. If there was no themes there is a pretty good chance Mad1 with champs would still be a core list.Sure with no themes people would be taking Mad1 + champs+ the things missing from BoH or SotN, but those none theme list still would look similar if a bit stronger.
There are a few outliers, but at some point nerfing and buffing becomes a treadmill for the meta. Not to say that some things couldn't use a bit more balancing up or down.
Just seems optimistic to think list diversity would change much at the high end with out themes although I'm sure it would be a different set more models.
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Post by cayterpius on Mar 31, 2018 5:34:48 GMT
I know we just got SotN with a bunch of new models and we're all feeling warm and fuzzy... but I've also noticed some factions now have 5 or even 6 themes.
What are we hoping for in the future?
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gdnerd
Junior Strategist
Posts: 656
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Post by gdnerd on Mar 31, 2018 6:12:48 GMT
I know we just got SotN with a bunch of new models and we're all feeling warm and fuzzy... but I've also noticed some factions now have 5 or even 6 themes. What are we hoping for in the future? I'm not sure we need more themes TBH, unless they want to make a theme that incentivises spamming elemental lights  I'd rather get a 12 Factions of Christmas pass on Power of Dhunia with a release that lets us play the theme as spellcaster spam. |
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Post by Trollock on Mar 31, 2018 10:31:34 GMT
I could totally see KC becoming more of the "yes this is the trench-style troll dudes" to become its own thing. Then one could potentially make a new theme (with plenty of releases) that focuses on scouts and highwaymen to be some sort of fast moving forest ambush theme. Light cavalry, hunter dudes with spears and traps etc. I could see that one happening...
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Post by cayterpius on Mar 31, 2018 16:51:14 GMT
I could totally see KC becoming more of the "yes this is the trench-style troll dudes" to become its own thing. Then one could potentially make a new theme (with plenty of releases) that focuses on scouts and highwaymen to be some sort of fast moving forest ambush theme. Light cavalry, hunter dudes with spears and traps etc. I could see that one happening... Completely agree. KC more of a "Cygnar" Troll theme with the modern weapons, greater range, trencher influence and give us the bloody Express Team already. Then a more "highwayman" theme with plenty of Pathfinder, Stealth, Ambush. An elemental theme would be great too. Opportunity to rework some lights a little and plenty of space for new models across all three. I'm secretly hoping one day we have enough releases for a Pyg theme. |
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gdnerd
Junior Strategist
Posts: 656
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Post by gdnerd on Mar 31, 2018 16:51:26 GMT
Yeah splitting it into Thornwood and ex-cygnar military. I can dig it.
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