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Post by kommandantgrizzwar on Apr 3, 2017 22:55:11 GMT
Any pointers or thoughts on this list, mainly thinking about the forge seers and whether or not to use them as Jack Marshals....
War Room Army
Khador - Karchev
Theme: Jaws of the Wolf 3 / 3 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army
Stockpile - Steamroller Objective
Karchev the Terrible - WJ: +30 - Kodiak - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13) - Kodiak - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13) - Marauder - PC: 10 (Battlegroup Points Used: 4) - Marauder - PC: 10 - Juggernaut - PC: 12 - Juggernaut - PC: 12
Greylord Forge Seer - PC: 0 - Destroyer - PC: 14 Greylord Forge Seer - PC: 0 - Destroyer - PC: 14 Widowmaker Marksman - PC: 4
Battle Mechaniks - Leader & 3 Grunts: 3 - Battle Mechanik Officer - PC: 0
THEME: Jaws of the Wolf ---
GENERATED : 04/03/2017 17:52:19 BUILD ID : 2038.17-03-15
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Post by cplmustard on Apr 3, 2017 23:08:19 GMT
Main advantage of marshaling is access to magic weapons, which karchev can use the feat to get (in melee anyways) I guess it depends on if this is your menoth drop or not. The main thing they lose is road to war moves, which is handy for that extra little bit of threat (possibly getting to aim more often), more counter charge targets and feat targets are nice to have, but certainly covered well by the rest of your bg.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Apr 3, 2017 23:22:27 GMT
Thinking about it, you actually probably loose out on the best part of the Feat which is the Boosted Damage Rolls.
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Post by Netherby on Apr 4, 2017 0:11:49 GMT
I feel like the answer with Karchev is probably no. Simply because the larger his battle group gets, the stronger his spells become. That was really the crux of cheap jack spam with him. Marshals don't provide enough to make it worth while.
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Post by auraco on Apr 4, 2017 2:50:21 GMT
The Forge seer is a big design problem, it is clearly what we used to call skornergic, it's too expansive for the meager marshal bonus it grants, so you want to play him in the jaw of the wolf list to get hit for free. But if you play in jaws of the wolf it's because you wan to run really jack heavy and that's probably because your caster has some good battlegroup stuff, so you don't want to marshal your jacks... This means the Forge seer ends up being just an empower bot...This model's design is so bad it baffles me how it got approved. Here's hoping for the Man O War CID to fix it.
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Post by Netherby on Apr 4, 2017 2:56:48 GMT
It has nothing to do with Forge Seer being bad and all to do with the Jack Marshal rules still being heavily lacking. Actually the Forge Seer is one of the better if not best Jack Marshals currently in the game.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Apr 4, 2017 3:07:22 GMT
Jack Marshal rules by their own design are Skornergistic.
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Post by khador247 on Apr 4, 2017 3:53:43 GMT
I think that Auraco hit the nail on the head. I'll buy a couple Forge Seers because I love the model but I don't really see him being terribly useful outside of Empower unfortunately. I have never been a fan of jack marshaling the entire time I've played this game. If I played a faction with light jacks I might think a bit differently but even then it has to be the right situation.
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Post by Netherby on Apr 4, 2017 4:00:19 GMT
There are cases where the Seer will work as a Marshal. Under casters that really hate to allocate to jacks but have buffs that can still help them out. Sorscha for example can use them. Crusher + Boundless Charge + Empower is a pretty decent combo. They are just not useful for jack casters as Marshals and thus not useful in the jack theme as Marshals
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Apr 4, 2017 11:43:56 GMT
I have a near identical list to try out! I've swapped the marksman and second marauder for a devastator though. I think the idea is a fairly solid one, though I've not tested it yet. Two magical, blessed, arcing fire AoE4 gunshots are great for triggering Road to War for Karchev's melee jacks, plus Empower can either be used to boost the gunshots or melee jacks as needed, which is great. This adds up to more melee attacks (and so more boosted damage rolls) on feat turn.
I've played a destroyer with Karchev a fair bit and it basically never uses the Road to War move itself and rarely gets into melee on feat turn, so I don't see a loss in marshaling them with Karchev. The free points you gain also equates to another jack, so there's a lot to be gained from Jaws of the Wolf. I think marshaling the destroyers is one of those gains.
As an aside, I'm surprised by how many people aren't happy about us getting magical, blessed warjacks...
Cheers, Dave
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Post by wayniac on Apr 4, 2017 12:22:57 GMT
Personally I don't think it's worth it in Khador to marshal; our jacks are too expensive. It works in, say, Cygnar or Menoth because they have lights that the Jack Marshals can benefit with their abilities (e.g. Charger/Firefly/Sentinel or Redeemer). But when you are spending a good chunk of points, it's often not worth it.
I have, however, considered something like a Forge Seer marshaling a Destroyer under say Vlad1, since S&P will buff it, Vlad doesn't want to allocate focus to it, and you can do some nasty things like using the +2 hit marshal + aiming to get some really nasty shots off, or do more damage. Haven't tried it yet though.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Apr 4, 2017 12:49:21 GMT
If you can take the 2 Forge Seers for free in Jaws of the Wolf and Marshall Behemoth to one of them, then you have a pretty good package.
He gets the two empowered focus to fully boost both his gun shots, you could also use 'take aim' for the extra damage, or 'strike true' to make him rat 6. Also those gun shots are magical and blessed.
for melee you can spend a focus to charge and use 'crush', which gives you 4 x pow 14 armour piercing attacks, one of which has a boosted damage roll, and all of which are blessed.
This whole package requires nothing from you warcaster, so any boundless charges/Hand of Fate/Fury you feel like throwing its way is just Gravy. the biggest danger is knockdown and stationary, as he has no way to shake it.
edit, just an additional point regarding not wanting to Marshall a Jack in Jaws of the Wolf due to losing out on Caster Battlegroup effects, that is a very fair point, however sometimes I feel having access to a blessed Behemoth would outweigh that, is that an Arcane shielded Stormwall, or a roots of the earth Woldwrath? guess I just smash it to pieces.
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Post by Netherby on Apr 4, 2017 23:01:00 GMT
It's worth it in some lists. I just think you lose too much doing it in a Karchev list.
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wendan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 785
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Post by wendan on Apr 4, 2017 23:05:08 GMT
I would agree with Netherby. Someone like Vlad or Sorscha would appreciate the marshaling more than someone like Karchev or Hark.
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Post by auraco on Apr 5, 2017 13:18:30 GMT
Quick question to the people who would consider running marshaled jack under Vlad or Sorscha. Don't you feel like you are loosing a lot with Vlad? I mean his feat is a pretty big deal in favor or running jacks on him and his feat is battlegroup.
Also aren't you scared of sending the jack out of drive range of the forge seer when using boundless charge? 4'' walk with 7'' command means a small 11'' drive range. You could run the forge seer, but then you'd lose the empower bonus.
I personnaly think jack marshalling is broken and the forge seer is just an empower bot that will only be played when free in jaws of the wolf. But that might just be me that's way too salty.
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