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Post by ozymandius on Apr 10, 2017 15:49:12 GMT
My Zerkova2 list currently has Behemoth marshalled by a forge seer. I have two in the list in order to keep him stocked with two focus a turn, and on feat turn, her feat lets me empower twice, for a fully loaded behemoth with a free charge. I have yet to try it out in a tournament, but it's next on the block. Very interesting idea - I am also thinking about 2 Forge Seers with Z2 but have not thought about using the Feat for double Empower...just had the boosted Hoarfroast in mind. Are you running the theme list or are you going out of theme? This is my current list: War Room Army Khador - Give Us Your God Back, Ios Theme: No Theme Selected 75 / 75 Army Obavnik Kommander Zerkova & Reaver Guard - WJ: +24 - Obavnik Kommander Zerkova & Reaver Guard (Cont.) - Juggernaut - PC: 12 (Battlegroup Points Used: 12) - Juggernaut - PC: 12 (Battlegroup Points Used: 12) Koldun Lord - PC: 4 Greylord Forge Seer - PC: 4 - Behemoth - PC: 25 Greylord Forge Seer - PC: 4 Gobber Tinker - PC: 2 Gobber Tinker - PC: 2 Greylord Outriders - Leader & 4 Grunts: 20 Greylord Ternion - Leader & 2 Grunts: 7 Greylord Ternion - Leader & 2 Grunts: 7 --- GENERATED : 04/10/2017 11:45:19 BUILD ID : 2039.17-03-16 no theme, but it's my primary dudeswarm-buster that can also handle armor. The double boosted hoarfrost is great, but spd 4 and rng 8 means they won't always be in range come feat turn. Besides, 3 focus on behemoth with a free charge, AND blessed means he routinely one rounds stormwalls. |
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Apr 10, 2017 16:07:36 GMT
ozymandiusHow are you getting 3 focus on Behemoth? you only have 2 Empowers
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Post by ozymandius on Apr 10, 2017 16:17:31 GMT
ozymandiusHow are you getting 3 focus on Behemoth? you only have 2 Empowers Zerkova's feat allows one forge seer to empower twice, since it is a magic ability. |
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Apr 10, 2017 16:27:51 GMT
ozymandius How are you getting 3 focus on Behemoth? you only have 2 Empowers Zerkova's feat allows one forge seer to empower twice, since it is a magic ability. oooh that's spicy! 
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Post by Soul Samurai on Apr 10, 2017 18:21:27 GMT
3 focus on behemoth with a free charge, AND blessed means he routinely one rounds stormwalls. Is the free charge from the jack marshal ability? Because I reckon you're better off paying for the charge but using Crush; either way you get 5 attacks, the first way those are P+S 12 AP attacks with oone boosted damage roll, the second way those are P+S 14 AP attacks without the single damage boost (so an average of 6.5 extra damage assuming you don't miss). |
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Post by ozymandius on Apr 10, 2017 20:53:36 GMT
3 focus on behemoth with a free charge, AND blessed means he routinely one rounds stormwalls. Is the free charge from the jack marshal ability? Because I reckon you're better off paying for the charge but using Crush; either way you get 5 attacks, the first way those are P+S 12 AP attacks with oone boosted damage roll, the second way those are P+S 14 AP attacks without the single damage boost (so an average of 6.5 extra damage assuming you don't miss). I mean, doing it my way, five pow 12 attacks, ap, with a free charge already kills everything in the game, but why not have five pow 14 attacks? |
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Post by Soul Samurai on Apr 11, 2017 7:25:00 GMT
I mean, doing it my way, five pow 12 attacks, ap, with a free charge already kills everything in the game, but why not have five pow 14 attacks? Mmm, P+S 12 AP vs ARM 19/20 is dice plus two. That's an average of 9 damage per attack. 9 x 5 = 45, add 3.5 for the charge, that's 48.5 damage. Using Crush, that's 11 per attack for 55 damage. I don't have my cards with me (and my memory sucks) so I don't remember how many boxes a Stormwall or Conquest has, but it seems to me that under these circumstances Behemoth has a decent chance of one-rounding a Colossal, but it's far from guaranteed - bad dice do happen. Not meaning to be a downer, just wanting to make sure people's expectations are reasonable to avoid disappointments. The real issue that I see is Behemoth's threat range without some kind of threat extension, but I guess if it's late-game then that's not as big a concern... although would you save your feat that late with Z2? I would feel most comfortable marshaling under a caster with some sort of threat extension: two Empowers and Boundless Charge gives you the same number of attacks with Crush, two extra inches, pathfinder, and the boosted damage on the charge attack for an overall superior threat that isn't feat-dependant (but does require caster focus). |
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Post by auraco on Apr 11, 2017 12:03:12 GMT
Did you manage to get the Behemoth in melee often with that list? As Soul Samurai mentionned the list doesn't have any threat range extender or ways to give pathfinder to the Behemoth, so while it should do a lot of damage to say an arcane shielded stormwall, the stormwall needs to be within 8 inches of the behemoth with no interveining terrain between the two. And well from my experiences if the behemoth is withing 8 inches of a stormwall it is going to get charged and probably destroyed before it can get into melee with the stormwall.
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Post by ozymandius on Apr 11, 2017 13:57:01 GMT
Are you asking if this is the most optimized way to run the behemoth marshalled on a Seer? Because it probably isnt. I haven't been able to play this list yet, since the Seers aren't out (competitively). I was already running behemoth on z2 before they got spoiled, and, as part of wanting two empower/hoarfrost solos in her army, I came up with something. The topic here is more or less 'is it worth marshalling with the seer' and I can tell you, that drive with empower probably competes for the best jack marshal in the game right now. I brought up marsahling the behemoth cause it's not something I came up (my group of gamer friends did), and I find it both perplexing and fantastic that marshling a 25 point character jack is the optimal way to run it in a certain context.
The point of my z2 list is not to handle armor skews, although I believe it has a fighting chance against them. The point is to create a stable, competitive list pairing that doesn't lose to list chicken (one of my biggest grips with the game).
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Post by Soul Samurai on Apr 11, 2017 14:12:53 GMT
Fair enough. I think some of us (myself included) are having a hard time seeing jack marshaling as useable at all, much less optimal, so we're looking for the absolute best combination possible as a way to judge if it's "worth it".
Anyway, let us know if you do get to give the combo a try.
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Post by ozymandius on Apr 11, 2017 14:22:23 GMT
Will do. They get released tomorrow, so I'll find out soon!
I think Jack Marshaling is in a weird place in Khador, as we don't have a "perfect" jack to marshal. IMO if the zerker chassis had aggressive still, then they'd be perfect for marshaling. I was sort of hoping that the Seer's drive would be aggressive for that reason. But, magic weapons and blessed is still a very strong drive, with very little (or possibly none?) other sources of blessed in faction.
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Post by Cryptix on Apr 11, 2017 14:38:39 GMT
A Stormwall is 10/19/56 BTW. I for some reason remember that number from my brief foray into Cygnar.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Apr 11, 2017 15:11:38 GMT
Well, between Agressive and the MOW Kovnik handing out boosted initial attacks, plus the headbutt from the chain attack getting booosted with the jack marshal bonus (and the ability to run two jacks on one marshal for a bit more cost-efficiency), he had some game and it felt like some thought had gone into the design.
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Post by auraco on Apr 11, 2017 15:45:45 GMT
ozymandius I don't think the Jack Marshal debate is specific to Khador, I think it's a systemwide problem, jack marshal as is is simply broken. We might have the best jack marshal in the game but I still think you are hurting yourself more by marshaling a jack than by runing it on your caster.
As I've mentionned before, I really hope the next generic CID (like the one they are doing for the battle engine) is going to be about jack marshals.
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Post by haraldtorvatn on Apr 11, 2017 17:18:19 GMT
I fought a battle with Karchev and the Jaws theme yesterday. I did not marhal anything but looking closer at the marshall bnuses I think I should marshaled my destroyer. List was: Karchev, 2x Devastator, 2x Marauder, 2x Kodiak, Juggernaut, Destroyer Widowmaker marksman, Manhunter, 2x Forge seer, Min Mechanics.
I had all the jacks in Karchevs battlegroup, I think marshaling the destroyer brings a lot of benefits. It loses countercharge or road to war, neither is very important for a destroyer. What it gains is a lot of flexibility, and if it really to do something particular, it does that better with a jack marshall than with just focus.
If you relly need it to hit something, aiming, striking true, and a focus from the seer makes it hit def 18 on an average roll, more acurate than it could be with just focus. If you need it to do much shooting damage to something, take aim make its shots pow 16, can be boosted with focus from the seer, for a more powerful shot than it willl ever acheive with just focus. If you need it to do a lot of damage in mele, charge it with focus from the seer, and crush for 2 pow 19 attacks (three) if it gets another focus.
When you can do without those extremes, the seer can give its focus to other jacks, and the destroyer can do with just the marshal benefits, which generally is only slightly worse than using a power up focus.
If a defender warded, arcane shielded, passaged or incorporeal model is the target, the marshaled jack performs far better than it would as a battlegroup jack.
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