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Post by Soul Samurai on Apr 11, 2017 17:59:10 GMT
We might have the best jack marshal in the game I dunno, I've always thought that Reposition is an excellent drive on the right jacks; the Stormblade Captain for example has Reposition and gives the Stormclad (which has a 10" natural threat) focus just by being close by, and that's in a faction that has access to Lanyssa and Arlan. If you relly need it to hit something, aiming, striking true, and a focus from the seer makes it hit def 18 on an average roll, more acurate than it could be with just focus. If you need it to do much shooting damage to something, take aim make its shots pow 16, can be boosted with focus from the seer, for a more powerful shot than it willl ever acheive with just focus. If you need it to do a lot of damage in mele, charge it with focus from the seer, and crush for 2 pow 19 attacks (three) if it gets another focus. When you can do without those extremes, the seer can give its focus to other jacks, and the destroyer can do with just the marshal benefits, which generally is only slightly worse than using a power up focus. If a defender warded, arcane shielded, passaged or incorporeal model is the target, the marshaled jack performs far better than it would as a battlegroup jack. Good points.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Apr 11, 2017 19:17:39 GMT
ozymandius I don't think the Jack Marshal debate is specific to Khador, I think it's a systemwide problem, jack marshal as is is simply broken. We might have the best jack marshal in the game but I still think you are hurting yourself more by marshaling a jack than by runing it on your caster. As I've mentionned before, I really hope the next generic CID (like the one they are doing for the battle engine) is going to be about jack marshals. Three thoughts. Two appropriate to your comment. 1. The next 2 CIDs are spoken for - SR2017 and battle engines. I think Banes are slipped in. As for 'the next' model type, I'd much prefer they take on colossals. 2. Jack marshalling with the forge seer might be an interesting choice if you're running ADR. I really only care about it for certain match ups. 3. A lot of folks have poo pooed the FS as a just being an empower bot. I'll remind folks his spell list doesn't suck.
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Post by auraco on Apr 11, 2017 21:28:48 GMT
Armchair Warrior, you think there is something wrong with the colossal? Or at least, that they are currently worst than the jack marshals in terms of rules? I'd be curious to get your reasons for that.
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Post by Cryptix on Apr 11, 2017 22:27:40 GMT
It's more of a case that either they cost too much and die too easily (Menoth, Cryx, non-Arcane Shielded Cygnar) or are simply outperformed by cheaper options in faction (Khador, Mercs somewhat)
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Apr 11, 2017 22:36:04 GMT
Depends how well the Conquests are selling.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Apr 11, 2017 23:27:01 GMT
Armchair Warrior, you think there is something wrong with the colossal? Or at least, that they are currently worst than the jack marshals in terms of rules? I'd be curious to get your reasons for that. I don't know that they're worse than jack marshalls per se, but I don't care about "fixing" jack marshalls nearly as much as I do colossals (in part because I love my Connie and Vicky, and in part because our jack marshalls work just fine as solos). What I think is "wrong" with our colossals (I won't speak for other factions because I don't play them)... They are really expensive for what they do, although I don't mind the cost. I'd love to pay 37 or 38 points for our colossals if I could get that much value from them. Let's start first with survivability. You are paying 300% the cost of a quality heavy, but you are getting only 182% as many boxes. With only 62 boxes, they are pretty easy to take out. Last time I fielded one, I was nearly one rounded by a black hide wrestler. If the opponent has any type of debuff at all, they are somewhat easy to one-round. Also, although they fixed grivious wounds, there are a ton of spells and effects out there that just wreck your investment. I see a lot of Wormwood, and resent that I need to pay the Orin tax to avoid Stranglehold. See a lot of Cygnar? Well, Shadowfire just wrecked your day. Next, let's talk about functionality. They are billed as awesome gun platforms. However, I find that I can rarely get more than one round of shooting - basically Round 2. (Using Victor's big gun on Round 1 is a trap. A huge trap.) The POW on the guns are too low compared to other guns (damnit, you can literally fit the entire mortar crew into Victor's big gun yet somehow the POW is lower?). Victor's effective RAT is complete bullsh**. You're paying for a scattered AOE, since a boosted POW 0 isn't hitting crap. Or, you're paying a artillary kaptain tax for POW 2. I call shenanigans. Given the cost, ROF 1 is also just stupid. On Victor, the secondary guns are completely, totally useless against any competent opponent. Finally, let's talk comparable capabilities for the point cost. For about the same cost as a Victor, I can bring a Juggernaut, Kodiak, and Devastator. So... I can get 65% as many boxes on 3 redundant platforms. I get a melee beatstick, pathfinder and infantry removal, and a boostable gun. I get 3 free focus instead of 1 focus. Want to pay a point less than a colossal? Swap one of melee jacks out for a Maurader and get a POW 20 combosmite. Fine, twist my arm. Oh, yeah, and the heavies you brought all benefit from the out of activation movement shenannigans we can deliver...WGK advance move, road to war, energizer, whatever. It's just such a corner case that the colossal is the right choice over 3 heavies, and IT SHOULDN'T BE. If I were going to fix colossals generally, I'd make them immune to a lot more stuff. I'd bump their boxes up...probably to 70 boxes for Khador, less for other factions (because, well, we're all about boxes). For our ladies, I'd boost the POW of the guns, and put Dual Attack on their big guns so that they could fire them every turn. For Vicky, I'd remove the RAT penalty on the big gun and give it High Explosive. I' also extend the range on her small guns. So, yeah, basically, I think they need an overhaul. It should be a difficult choice for all of our casters to decide if you want to take 3 heavies vs. 1 colossal.
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Post by auraco on Apr 12, 2017 1:58:41 GMT
I don't think it's that bad, although I think Victor got hit a bit too hard by the nerfbat this edition, being more expansive than the conquest instead of less, losing a critical two range on the secondary gun... Because at the moment yeah you're pretty much paying for a 5'' aoe scatter and it's not worth 38 points. So far I haven't been disappointed by the conquest though, it doesn't fit in all my list but a couple of casters can run it well enough, pow 23 with 2'' reach on a pathfinder chassis is still very good and the secondary guns on the conquest can now do a lot of work against infantry and even threaten casters when boosted, and I tend to see more infantry since they've released more theme list. It's no for every list, but I do like it in some. They might need adjustments but I think jack marshals should be next after battle engine. Yeah jack marshal solo still have other abilities, but pretty much all the list I see with forge seers are Jaws of the Wolf where the forge seer is free. If he was good enough he'd get taken out of tier too, which doesn't really seem to be the case.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on Apr 12, 2017 2:32:03 GMT
It's always a shame when rules don't work out. It's like the equivalent of an suffering vestigial limb.
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on Apr 12, 2017 8:16:38 GMT
I've got good work out of the conquest so far. It does very well supporting armies where most/all infantry is melee based very well. Unfortunately I haven't yet found a time to use victor. Una2 got nerfed too quickly It might have a use against the Legion flying theme? Not convinced at all though. I've been pleased with the forge seer as a jack marshal to be honest. I think they won't work well everywhere, but with the right caster and jack they are legit. Not so sure on the MoW kovnik as a marshal, but that works well ignoring it's jack marshal ability. Try a forge seer running a destroyer in an Irusk2 list with Behemoth in Irusk2's battlegroup. A lot of firepower for very little focus expense from Irusk himself (1 focus to upkeep Fire For Effect on the destroyer). I also think destroyers could be marshalled when running Karchev. Makes them better at triggering Road to War and the stuff they loose out on very rarely comes up for them anyway in my experience. Cheers, Dave
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Apr 12, 2017 11:37:38 GMT
I don't think it's that bad, although I think Victor got hit a bit too hard by the nerfbat this edition, being more expansive than the conquest instead of less, losing a critical two range on the secondary gun... Because at the moment yeah you're pretty much paying for a 5'' aoe scatter and it's not worth 38 points. So far I haven't been disappointed by the conquest though, it doesn't fit in all my list but a couple of casters can run it well enough, pow 23 with 2'' reach on a pathfinder chassis is still very good and the secondary guns on the conquest can now do a lot of work against infantry and even threaten casters when boosted, and I tend to see more infantry since they've released more theme list. It's no for every list, but I do like it in some. They might need adjustments but I think jack marshals should be next after battle engine. Yeah jack marshal solo still have other abilities, but pretty much all the list I see with forge seers are Jaws of the Wolf where the forge seer is free. If he was good enough he'd get taken out of tier too, which doesn't really seem to be the case. No doubt Connie > Vicky, and the model isn't 'trash'. Totally usable in some lists, and I do field one occasionally. But they, like the Spriggan, shouldn't be niche pieces in just a couple of lists. (Now I'm just baiting people by bringing up the Spriggan...)
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Post by Soul Samurai on Apr 12, 2017 11:49:13 GMT
But they, like the Spriggan, shouldn't be niche pieces in just a couple of lists. (Now I'm just baiting people by bringing up the Spriggan...) Must... resist... urge... to... rant...
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Post by welshhoppo on Apr 12, 2017 12:04:05 GMT
But they, like the Spriggan, shouldn't be niche pieces in just a couple of lists. (Now I'm just baiting people by bringing up the Spriggan...) Must... resist... urge... to... rant... Do it do it do it! Spriggan is okay and doesn't need buff! It's okay that a newer model Jack hits worst than a model 150 years older.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on Apr 12, 2017 12:11:00 GMT
Must... resist... urge... to... rant... Do it do it do it! Spriggan is okay and doesn't need buff! It's okay that a newer model Jack hits worst than a model 150 years older. Yeah, on second thought I've been too hard on the little guy. Soul Samurai, you're undervaluing 2" reach, the shield and charge bonus. If anything the spriggan is probably under costed by a point. I mean, look at Beast 09! It's a steal at 21 points I tell you, and the Spriggan compares favorably because of the anti stealth tech. Sheesh.
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Post by Soul Samurai on Apr 12, 2017 13:59:30 GMT
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Post by Cryptix on Apr 12, 2017 14:55:37 GMT
YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG!
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