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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jan 26, 2018 13:24:53 GMT
The thing you have to do when designing and balancing models, is to take them to the most extreme point you can, and see if it is still acceptable to the game.
The most infamous example would be the good old Karchev Mad Dog Spam, I doubt PP ever tested Karchev with 10+ Mad Dogs, and if they did think about it, they probably thought 'no one will go that extreme', however people will and do, and lo and behold it was not acceptable to the game.
Bearing that in mind, you have to assume that Chosen are going to be played in the strongest possible combo for them, because while Mad Dog spam might have been acceptable with a Vlad 1 or a Harkevitch, it was Karchev who pushed it over the edge, and that was all that mattered, as long as there is one unacceptable combo for a model, it should be changed.
What that means then is certain casters are limiting factors on how good you can make something, and you then have to make a decision, do we:
a) reduce the power of the caster to allow this model to be better
b) do we reduce the power of the model so it is acceptable with the best caster for it, but at the expense of being weaker with other casters.
I think Chosen are facing that question now. I agree that their base stats will fold to powerful gunlines and good heavies. But you have to look at their best possible combos.
Anamag with a BB, can get them to arm 21, Feign Death and Rise, and give them a +2 mat swing, and a +4 damage swing (+2 on the mount) from her feat and spells.
Now I personally think that the combination with Anamag is plenty powerful, however if having that strongest combo means they are not as good with other casters, then that is the choice the designers have to make.
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Post by blighttrain on Jan 26, 2018 18:59:38 GMT
The thing you have to do when designing and balancing models, is to take them to the most extreme point you can, and see if it is still acceptable to the game. I would say, the thing you have to do when designing and balancing models, is to take them to the worst scenario you can, and see if it is still acceptable to the PLAYER. Bearing that in mind, you have to assume that Chosen are going to be played in the strongest possible combo for them,...and that was all that mattered, as long as there is one unacceptable combo for a model, it should be changed. I completely disagree with this line of thinking. YOU have to assume, Chosen are going to be played. That's all that matters. The whole picture needs to be considered when designing and releasing new models, not just the extreme end. Imagine if your boss thought like that... Hey, Larry, great work you did on all those other 99 projects, we know you only messed up one assignment, but it's unacceptable and you need to go. What that means then is certain casters are limiting factors on how good you can make something, and you then have to make a decision, do we: a) reduce the power of the caster to allow this model to be better b) do we reduce the power of the model so it is acceptable with the best caster for it, but at the expense of being weaker with other casters. c) alter the model to not interact with the 'problem' caster (add rules, delete rules, CREATE new special rules) d) enhance all of the other casters so they can make this model better Don't make such sweeping assumptions about what is/is not a limiting factor and lead people to believe there are only 2 options, both of which are not good for the faction as a whole. The problem is the scope of the CiD is way too small. Additionally, there isn't enough time to given to truly "test" what is a problem and what isn't a problem. Luckily, for us as players, these things can be fixed fairly easy and the changes distributed overnight. Sorry to single this one post out, I've seen many folks think this opinion is gospel,...it's so very far from the truth. When engineers/architects design trains/planes/boats, do you think they design only for the most ideal circumstances? Of course not, and I don't think you believe that. Designers (Privateer Press) should be thinking about balance within EACH way the Chosen (or any model) can be enjoyed by the players. The ultimate goal is to sell these things right? If a group of Chosen can be used with all casters, but it's great with 5-7, good with 5-7 and ok with 5-7, wouldn't that be better for PP sales? Instead of Chosen being AMAZING/OVER THE TOP with 1-2 casters, and inconsiderable with rest of the faction? |
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Post by oncomingstorm on Jan 26, 2018 21:06:14 GMT
I would say, the thing you have to do when designing and balancing models, is to take them to the worst scenario you can, and see if it is still acceptable to the PLAYER. ... I completely disagree with this line of thinking. YOU have to assume, Chosen are going to be played. That's all that matters. The whole picture needs to be considered when designing and releasing new models, not just the extreme end. Imagine if your boss thought like that... Hey, Larry, great work you did on all those other 99 projects, we know you only messed up one assignment, but it's unacceptable and you need to go.1. Acceptable to the player means acceptable to all players, not just players of the faction in question. Acceptable 'to the game' is shorthand for 'acceptable to the totality of the player community.' I'm sure there are a subset of players that would love to play on easy mode all the time, that doesn't mean they should have OP crap. 2. In my profession, if I take on 99 clients and handle their cases professionally, and on the 100th I fail to meet those standards, I will be harshly disciplined by the governing body of my profession. I may lose my license to practice for years, or even permanently. Even working in a less stringent field, completing 99 projects successfully won't stop you from getting fired if you royally Firetruck up the 100th. I'm not even gonna deal with the rest of your post, but suffice to say you seem to be laboring under a delusion that the way models get played is, effectively, random, such that any combination of models/casters is equally likely to find it's way onto the table. Players (at least, the players the game is being balanced for) do not just throw models into a list and hope for the best. They find synergies, and create lists around those synergies. Whether or not Chosen suck with, say, Thagrosh2, or are only 'mediocre' with Rhyas1 simply does not matter from a game balance perspective, just like it didn't matter that Storm Lances weren't particularly broken with Stryker2. If they're too good with Anamag, or Thags1, or who-the-hell-ever, they're too good period. |
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Post by blighttrain on Jan 26, 2018 21:25:53 GMT
I would say, the thing you have to do when designing and balancing models, is to take them to the worst scenario you can, and see if it is still acceptable to the PLAYER. ... I completely disagree with this line of thinking. YOU have to assume, Chosen are going to be played. That's all that matters. The whole picture needs to be considered when designing and releasing new models, not just the extreme end. Imagine if your boss thought like that... Hey, Larry, great work you did on all those other 99 projects, we know you only messed up one assignment, but it's unacceptable and you need to go.1. Acceptable to the player means acceptable to all players, not just players of the faction in question. Acceptable 'to the game' is shorthand for 'acceptable to the totality of the player community.' I'm sure there are a subset of players that would love to play on easy mode all the time, that doesn't mean they should have OP crap. I'm not even gonna deal with the rest of your post, but suffice to say you seem to be laboring under a delusion that ... oncomingstorm, You seem to be misquoting 36cygnar24guy36 and my post. Perhaps you want to fix that, and also relax a bit? You come off like a ripe feces throwing ape. These are toys. Nothing more. |
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Post by copperflame on Jan 26, 2018 21:36:23 GMT
For me, I know the Chosen are powerful - maybe too good. But the reason I am not saying that they are OP is that they help Legion with a issue that has been back breaking for a long time. I am very willing to listen to any way to balance Chosen (lowering their offence) without making them ineffective to what (at least I) perceive as their purpose.
As long as someone offers a suggestion on how to help make the situation better, I am much more receptive the feedback.
On the scope of a broader balance situation... I'm fine balancing casters and moving abilities around to help balance out things (I made this suggestion with Ammok/Gorag/War Chief).
Anamag is really powerful yet I hate model look. Though, I think I would be an idiot not to have her + a full PT layout if I want to face some of the nastier lists. If Anamag is the issue though, please feel free to help suggest where some of the power level that is there elsewhere so Legion is not limited.
The issue may be the narrow scope of the CID also. PP has to sell models and revamping old ones does not keep you in business.
Basically, feel free to make suggestions to the root problem.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Jan 26, 2018 21:43:08 GMT
1. Acceptable to the player means acceptable to all players, not just players of the faction in question. Acceptable 'to the game' is shorthand for 'acceptable to the totality of the player community.' I'm sure there are a subset of players that would love to play on easy mode all the time, that doesn't mean they should have OP crap. I'm not even gonna deal with the rest of your post, but suffice to say you seem to be laboring under a delusion that ... oncomingstorm, You seem to be misquoting 36cygnar24guy36 and my post. Perhaps you want to fix that, and also relax a bit? You come off like a ripe feces throwing ape. These are toys. Nothing more. Incorrect, but I feel no need to engage with someone whose first resort in an argument is ad hominems. |
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Post by blighttrain on Jan 26, 2018 22:15:15 GMT
I'm not even gonna deal with the rest of your post, but suffice to say you seem to be laboring under a delusion...
...but I feel no need to engage with someone whose first resort in an argument is ad hominems.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Jan 26, 2018 22:23:50 GMT
I'm not even gonna deal with the rest of your post, but suffice to say you seem to be laboring under a delusion...
...but I feel no need to engage with someone whose first resort in an argument is ad hominems.
If you can't see the difference between attacking the quality of someone's arguments, and attacking that person, I can see why you're having an issue here. |
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Post by catulle on Jan 26, 2018 22:39:02 GMT
I'm just wondering who he usually posts as... Because that "the player" shit is stupid as. The solipsism of wargaming: an exemplar territory.
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Post by Swampmist on Jan 27, 2018 0:11:43 GMT
yeah, we're done here.
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