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Post by jisidro on Jan 25, 2018 14:27:26 GMT
OMG Cygnar takes over everything! [/sarcasm] Seriously though. You have your own forum  It's valid for any faction and any kind of model. Stats are balancing tools... Take the Skorne turtle-like BE... It doesn't scream speed and is now as fast as most CAVs, faster than chosen and bullriders, faster than Kaya3 and her SPD 7 Giant Wolf and faster than any flying warbeast... not bad. I guess they should have added rockets to the sculpt? |
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jan 25, 2018 14:32:33 GMT
OMG Cygnar takes over everything! [/sarcasm] Seriously though. You have your own forum It's valid for any faction and any kind of model. Stats are balancing tools... Take the Skorne turtle-like BE... It doesn't scream speed and is now as fast as most CAVs, faster than chosen and bullriders, faster than Kaya3 and her SPD 7 Giant Wolf and faster than any flying warbeast... not bad. I guess they should have added rockets to the sculpt? I would not hold up the Derp Turtle as a good example of what a model should be, that thing is an abomination.
I know it is only fluff, and who cares about that right! but I just don't see the point of breaking sound logic, like the same chassis having the same defensive stats, when it can easily be avoided.
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Post by 36cygnar24guy36 on Jan 25, 2018 14:33:22 GMT
OMG Cygnar takes over everything! [/sarcasm] Seriously though. You have your own forum It's not that busy though, I get bored so like to lecture people on how I would play their faction better! |
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Post by jisidro on Jan 25, 2018 14:38:03 GMT
It's valid for any faction and any kind of model. Stats are balancing tools... Take the Skorne turtle-like BE... It doesn't scream speed and is now as fast as most CAVs, faster than chosen and bullriders, faster than Kaya3 and her SPD 7 Giant Wolf and faster than any flying warbeast... not bad. I guess they should have added rockets to the sculpt? I would not hold up the Derp Turtle as a good example of what a model should be, that thing is an abomination.
I know it is only fluff, and who cares about that right! but I just don't see the point of breaking sound logic, like the same chassis having the same defensive stats, when it can easily be avoided.
It is an extreme example but also a succefull one. It is now a viable played model when previously it was a geeky expensive paperweight. Avoided, yes. Off-limits, no. |
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doopsie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 341 
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Post by doopsie on Jan 25, 2018 17:34:58 GMT
I am also annoyed at the whining from other factions in the Legion CID. There are things that are overly powerful and other that are not good enough. The Chosen at armor 17 were fine. The healing portion of their card is a reactionary effect that can be shut down. This unit is finally an ok answer to low pow or mid pow guns which legion doesn’t have. The blight bringers animus is not good for the game and his point cost was lowered significantly. I can see the animus changing time overall balanced and his point cost going back up. Octavius from the forum got into a discussion with me on Facebook skorne memes about the chosen and how OP they are. Then again, he was upset that a 12 pt heavy without buffs couldn’t stand up well to double buffed chose. Who would of thought that an ironclad gets charged by heavy cav.......... Little late to the party, but counter-point: you say chosen are fine because the healing portion can be shut down, which IMO reveals your own, just as dangerous, bias. Let's count just how many ways there are to stop it. Due to lack of time, I'm gonna go with the three factions I know best (Menoth, Retribution, Grymkin) Menoth - Blood of Martyrs - Grievous Wounds on weapons Alten Ashley - Grievous Wounds on weapons (kinda cheating here as I'm stretching to Mercs) Retribution - Garryth - Grievous Wounds on blades Banshee - Crit Grievous Wounds on blades Grymkin - All Warlocks - Accursed Arcana Death Knell - Entropic Force Twilight Sisters - Grievous Wounds on blades So correct me if I'm wrong, but that's not a lot of ways to "shut down" healing, which you dismiss as trivial. The best at it are Grymkin, which require using a difficult-to-trigger Arcana (a model with a corpse token has to be damaged while within control range, and only effects models while in control range), the Chosen ending within 5" of a battle engine that wants to be in the backfield (not likely given reposition), or getting hit in melee by the Twilight Sisters, who very much should not be getting into melee. |
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Post by chillychinaman on Jan 25, 2018 18:07:20 GMT
Another option would be, y'know, just killing them outright. A couple boosted POW14 shots, stand semi-decent odds of killing them base. A POW17 heavy can also kill a couple of them and probably weather the retaliation. |
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doopsie
Junior Strategist
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Post by doopsie on Jan 25, 2018 18:47:54 GMT
Sure, but that option stands for all Cav.
I was specifically replying to the idea that "the healing portion of the card is a reactionary effect that can be shut down." Yes, it can be shut down, by a very select number of models. But if you don't take one of those very few models (or even if you do, as Alten for example can only tag one a turn), then the healing is not a trivial ability and greatly increases the units survival vs lower-POW attacks well beyond that of similar units.
I find it disingenuous at best to call out the bias in others while not recognizing your own bias. As they stand, the Chosen are some of, if not the most, durable cavalry in the game and to brush off the healing ability's contribution to that as negligible is misleading at best.
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Post by oncomingstorm on Jan 25, 2018 18:51:17 GMT
Another option would be, y'know, just killing them outright. A couple boosted POW14 shots, stand semi-decent odds of killing them base. A POW17 heavy can also kill a couple of them and probably weather the retaliation. If they're not receiving an armor buff (they should be) or under the BB's aura (most of the time, they will be, at least until they commit). Solving an ARM 21 Rapid healing, tough, 8 box unit is a much different puzzle than killing an ARM 17 tough, rapid healing 8 box unit. The main problem I have with the unit is they take buffs so. Firetrucking. well. when armor buffed to the max, they become extraordinarily difficult to remove, even for heavies, while they maintain high maneuverability, speed, and hitting power (similar to most cav). |
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Post by chillychinaman on Jan 25, 2018 19:07:26 GMT
I was specifically replying to the idea that "the healing portion of the card is a reactionary effect that can be shut down." Fair enough, but do you really need to go out of your way to include GW/Anti-heal in your army when you could easily slot in strong guns that work into other type of lists? That was the intent of my response. If they're not receiving an armor buff (they should be) or under the BB's aura (most of the time, they will be, at least until they commit). Solving an ARM 21 Rapid healing, tough, 8 box unit is a much different puzzle than killing an ARM 17 tough, rapid healing 8 box unit. The main problem I have with the unit is they take buffs so. Firetrucking. well. when armor buffed to the max, they become extraordinarily difficult to remove, even for heavies, while they maintain high maneuverability, speed, and hitting power (similar to most cav). I mean you can stack a +4 almost and make anything durable, that entails keeping them within 5/6" of the SPD4/5" Blightbringer, unless you bank on a lucky scatter and cram the 5 large bases in a 5" AoE. Honestly, I think they'd be tougher after commiting because they should be sitting in the AoE. It would be more fair to balance them around ARM19 which the faction has access to a few of. However, isn't the point of stacking stats to make good models better? Isn't that the purpose of synergy? Finally, I think it's disingenuous to count the buff of a 32+pt gargantuan even if it is a very compelling choice in this theme. I would personally be in favor of lowering their offensive output. Drop Brutal charge and lower Mount PS to 13. Maybe reduce SPD to 6 but given them +2" to runs. almost |
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gordo
Junior Strategist
My star is green?
Posts: 548
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Post by gordo on Jan 25, 2018 19:16:36 GMT
Another option would be, y'know, just killing them outright. A couple boosted POW14 shots, stand semi-decent odds of killing them base. A POW17 heavy can also kill a couple of them and probably weather the retaliation. If they're not receiving an armor buff (they should be) or under the BB's aura (most of the time, they will be, at least until they commit). Solving an ARM 21 Rapid healing, tough, 8 box unit is a much different puzzle than killing an ARM 17 tough, rapid healing 8 box unit. The main problem I have with the unit is they take buffs so. Firetrucking. well. when armor buffed to the max, they become extraordinarily difficult to remove, even for heavies, while they maintain high maneuverability, speed, and hitting power (similar to most cav). There are solutions to that as well: forced movement to push them out of the aura, upkeep removal, attacking the models that are giving them buffs in the first place, debuffs of your own, the entire Cryx faction... Plus with at most 10 attacks on a 20 point unit, they are trivially easy to jam, which has been shown in MANY battle reports. People keep trying to defeat them with head on approaches and failing. I think that was the designers intent. |
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Post by oncomingstorm on Jan 25, 2018 19:16:49 GMT
I was specifically replying to the idea that "the healing portion of the card is a reactionary effect that can be shut down." Fair enough, but do you really need to go out of your way to include GW/Anti-heal in your army when you could easily slot in strong guns that work into other type of lists? That was the intent of my response. If they're not receiving an armor buff (they should be) or under the BB's aura (most of the time, they will be, at least until they commit). Solving an ARM 21 Rapid healing, tough, 8 box unit is a much different puzzle than killing an ARM 17 tough, rapid healing 8 box unit. The main problem I have with the unit is they take buffs so. Firetrucking. well. when armor buffed to the max, they become extraordinarily difficult to remove, even for heavies, while they maintain high maneuverability, speed, and hitting power (similar to most cav). I mean you can stack a +4 almost and make anything durable, that entails keeping them within 5/6" of the SPD4/5" Blightbringer, unless you bank on a lucky scatter and cram the 5 large bases in a 5" AoE. Honestly, I think they'd be tougher after commiting because they should be sitting in the AoE. It would be more fair to balance them around ARM19 which the faction has access to a few of. However, isn't the point of stacking stats to make good models better? Isn't that the purpose of synergy? Finally, I think it's disingenuous to count the buff of a 32+pt gargantuan even if it is a very compelling choice in this theme. I would personally be in favor of lowering their offensive output. Drop Brutal charge and lower Mount PS to 13. Maybe reduce SPD to 6 but given them +2" to runs. almost That's fine. I have no problem with chosen being inordinately hard to shift, I have an issue with them being that on top of all the other stuff. As for the BB, I don't see many lists not running one in pt with the buffs it's gotten. Especially lists with chosen. I think it's more disingenuous to NOT consider it. |
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doopsie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 341
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Post by doopsie on Jan 25, 2018 19:47:20 GMT
I was specifically replying to the idea that "the healing portion of the card is a reactionary effect that can be shut down." Fair enough, but do you really need to go out of your way to include GW/Anti-heal in your army when you could easily slot in strong guns that work into other type of lists? That was the intent of my response. Just how common are boostable POW14s in your meta? Cause they're not exactly dime-a-dozen. Hell, a Reckoner costs 16 points, and is going to kill one Chosen, at best, before they ride in and wreck it (not actually. Average dice says it's left on 8 boxes). |
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doopsie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 341
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Post by doopsie on Jan 25, 2018 19:51:43 GMT
If they're not receiving an armor buff (they should be) or under the BB's aura (most of the time, they will be, at least until they commit). Solving an ARM 21 Rapid healing, tough, 8 box unit is a much different puzzle than killing an ARM 17 tough, rapid healing 8 box unit. The main problem I have with the unit is they take buffs so. Firetrucking. well. when armor buffed to the max, they become extraordinarily difficult to remove, even for heavies, while they maintain high maneuverability, speed, and hitting power (similar to most cav). There are solutions to that as well: forced movement to push them out of the aura, upkeep removal, attacking the models that are giving them buffs in the first place, debuffs of your own, the entire Cryx faction... Plus with at most 10 attacks on a 20 point unit, they are trivially easy to jam, which has been shown in MANY battle reports. People keep trying to defeat them with head on approaches and failing. I think that was the designers intent. Being easily jammed is not a unique weakness of Chosen, it is a weakness of all cav. Hell, Neigh Slayers become almost entirely useless if engaged (all they can attack with is a POW10 mount, thanks to the stupid Lance rule). |
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Post by chillychinaman on Jan 25, 2018 20:08:48 GMT
Fair enough, but do you really need to go out of your way to include GW/Anti-heal in your army when you could easily slot in strong guns that work into other type of lists? That was the intent of my response. Just how common are boostable POW14s in your meta? Cause they're not exactly dime-a-dozen. Hell, a Reckoner costs 16 points, and is going to kill one Chosen, at best, before they ride in and wreck it (not actually. Average dice says it's left on 8 boxes). Most lists I build tend to have at least a couple guns, be they Reckoners or Bolt Throwers. Random gun boat BE like the Strider and Cricket. Woldwyrds have pretty good odds if the Chosen have a spell buff. Skorne Raiders, Troll Impalers. Granted I don't which of these are meta-viable options, but POW~14 guns look like their prevalent enough to me. And finally, I'm not expecting these things to delete the unit. Killing a couple really blunts the their impact due to 5-model unit counts coupled with their 20pt cost. The double boat+BB already costs 72pts. Assuming Anamag+Golab you only have 13pts+2 freebies to play with for support for a max model count of around 20 models on the table. At that point, you could probably just target priority a unit with most of your army. |
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Post by macdaddy on Jan 25, 2018 20:13:45 GMT
Boosted Pow 14 shooting is not nearly as common as you think.
Having said that, yeah the whole package is expensive, but at this point the BB is a very solid and viable garg, he is way more than just Dragons breath on a stick. His animus and gun are worthwhile and he hits pretty hard to boot! So I think we can start taking that into consideration when we verify the whole package. Its not just "pay 32 points to make chosen 2 strength and arm" Now its "pay 32 points for a gargantuan that also supports my army"
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