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Post by Cryptix on Oct 8, 2017 16:00:11 GMT
Honestly the purgation bit it too much and people will riot. The rest is just fine. The other got that makes them really good is just the amount of versatile buffs they have and all of them can be useful. I doubt pp will ever make it. battlecollege.org/index.php/Eilish_Garrity,_the_Occultist Isn't Elish a 5" bubble? GAH NOW YOU'RE GETTING ME INVOLVED. TAKE IT TO ANOTHER THREAD.
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Oct 8, 2017 16:12:57 GMT
yeah, but he does work into most armies, and has puppet master to keep usefulness up when he can't dispel anything. complete with getting a free teleport afterwards, he's quite powerful, quite versatile, hard to pin down, and exactly what wolfbane said PP wasn't going to make.
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Post by josephkerr on Oct 8, 2017 18:50:44 GMT
Not OP? With two initials and 3 focus, a jack gets 10 boosts and blessed for free. A crusader with battle nearly one rounds an arcane shielded stormwall. I can see Blessed/Magic Weapon, but Purgation is a bit much. Just gonna point out that we can already do this. Scourge of Heresy and Barnd of Heresy are a thing, they're just shackled to our most thinly spread caster To be clear, I dont think its a problem that Protectorate has jacks with Blessed/Purgation. I think its a problem when one Crusader a turn get B/P and u can run 5 crusaders and a dervish with 40 points of infantry, of which this unit counts for freebie points. If PoM got more jacks with B/P Id be all for it as it would (presumably) be accounted for in points.
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Post by W0lfBane on Oct 9, 2017 3:06:53 GMT
yeah, but he does work into most armies, and has puppet master to keep usefulness up when he can't dispel anything. complete with getting a free teleport afterwards, he's quite powerful, quite versatile, hard to pin down, and exactly what wolfbane said PP wasn't going to make. No i mean protectorate can't have nice things. Like they'll make it fir other factions and they'll incidentally let us use then sometimes but protectorate can't have nice things
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Post by greytemplar on Oct 9, 2017 4:10:57 GMT
Purgation on a stick would certainly help with bringing our faction's themes back into the limelight in the faction itself. It would help alleviate the problem of our dissolving identity.
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spideredd
Junior Strategist
Summer Gamer
Posts: 588
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Post by spideredd on Oct 9, 2017 7:43:56 GMT
I'd like to see more Purgation, but I really don't think that it should be on a stick. Maybe it could go on a caster. Heck, if Malkus lost Scourge for a spell that gave Purgation, I'd be happy and I think it'd be a positive change for him.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Oct 9, 2017 13:10:55 GMT
I'd like to see more Purgation, but I really don't think that it should be on a stick. Maybe it could go on a caster. Heck, if Malkus lost Scourge for a spell that gave Purgation, I'd be happy and I think it'd be a positive change for him. Malekus can never change. He is a battle box caster and is balanced to play specifically against other bb casters. Purgation on a caster is a reasonable thing to balance. High focus cost, turn duration, only big "power" spell on their card, non-offensive feat. Putting it on a cheap back field support piece is disgusting. Adding that on top of the gratuitous amounts of available damage in faction is beyond ridiculous and in a sane world I don't think it should even be suggested. Protectorate's identity, in my opinnion, isn't about disgusting amounts of super efficient damage that cannot be countered. Regular, middle-of-the road scenario. Sevy1, Faithful masses, Sanctifier. Mat 7 PS 17. Battle - Pow 19. HoV - Mat 9 Pow 21. Proposed spell adds blessed and purgation. Sanctifier is now hitting 3d6 +2 x4, 3d6 x1 against an AS'd Stormwall, one of the highest durability sets ups that I'm aware of. on the average 3.5dmg/die It one rounds the Stormwall with a full stack of focus that it can generate all on it's own. Absolutely ZERO resources spent by the caster. Please begin the logical acrobatics to tell me that's perfectly balanced. The most egregious violation using this proposed model. Amon, Faithfull masses, Dervish. Mat12 Pow 20. 3d6 +1 x5. A 7 point light now one rounds a Arcane shielded Colossal worth over 5 times it's point cost. I could understand that model if PoM had NO source of damage buff outside of their casters. I wouldn't mind if every faction had access to a +2/+4 support boat completely independent of casters. But that's not the case. PoM is the only faction with that kind of tech and you would have thought that would have been fantastic enough...
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Post by c0deb1ue on Oct 9, 2017 14:32:09 GMT
Malekus can never change. He is a battle box caster and is balanced to play specifically against other bb casters. Purgation on a caster is a reasonable thing to balance. High focus cost, turn duration, only big "power" spell on their card, non-offensive feat. Putting it on a cheap back field support piece is disgusting. Adding that on top of the gratuitous amounts of available damage in faction is beyond ridiculous and in a sane world I don't think it should even be suggested. Protectorate's identity, in my opinnion, isn't about disgusting amounts of super efficient damage that cannot be countered. Regular, middle-of-the road scenario. Sevy1, Faithful masses, Sanctifier. Mat 7 PS 17. Battle - Pow 19. HoV - Mat 9 Pow 21. Proposed spell adds blessed and purgation. Sanctifier is now hitting 3d6 +2 x4, 3d6 x1 against an AS'd Stormwall, one of the highest durability sets ups that I'm aware of. on the average 3.5dmg/die It one rounds the Stormwall with a full stack of focus that it can generate all on it's own. Absolutely ZERO resources spent by the caster. Please begin the logical acrobatics to tell me that's perfectly balanced. The most egregious violation using this proposed model. Amon, Faithfull masses, Dervish. Mat12 Pow 20. 3d6 +1 x5. A 7 point light now one rounds a Arcane shielded Colossal worth over 5 times it's point cost. I could understand that model if PoM had NO source of damage buff outside of their casters. I wouldn't mind if every faction had access to a +2/+4 support boat completely independent of casters. But that's not the case. PoM is the only faction with that kind of tech and you would have thought that would have been fantastic enough... I think we need to wait and see how FM does in actual ply as it wasn’t particularly overpowered in CID outside of Amon (and that’s with lights involved). Our jacks and various bits are already costed with the choir tax in mind so it isn’t just a freebie +0/+2 and additionally I have no issue with our jacks hitting crazy hard when the threat so poorly (bar the dervish - with amon). They should do a shed tonne of damage when they arrive. I think you should be slightly less forthright with what is just pure maths theorycraft. I mean no-one thinks this is going to happen but PP has already obviously decided we are going to have heavy-hitting jack heavies with the theme bonus, it is definitely part of our identity.
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Post by c0deb1ue on Oct 9, 2017 14:34:30 GMT
I think we need to wait and see how FM does in actual ply as it wasn’t particularly overpowered in CID outside of Amon (and that’s with lights involved). Our jacks and various bits are already costed with the choir tax in mind so it isn’t just a freebie +0/+2 and additionally I have no issue with our jacks hitting crazy hard when the threat so poorly (bar the dervish - with amon). They should do a shed tonne of damage when they arrive. I think you should be slightly less forthright with what is just pure maths theorycraft. I mean no-one thinks this is going to happen but PP has already obviously decided we are going to have heavy-hitting jack heavies with the theme bonus, it is definitely part of our identity. I mean our threat range is about one of the biggest natural counters that basically the majority of other factions have against us... we are sloooow
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Oct 9, 2017 15:43:09 GMT
I think we need to wait and see how FM does in actual ply as it wasn’t particularly overpowered in CID outside of Amon (and that’s with lights involved). Our jacks and various bits are already costed with the choir tax in mind so it isn’t just a freebie +0/+2 and additionally I have no issue with our jacks hitting crazy hard when the threat so poorly (bar the dervish - with amon). They should do a shed tonne of damage when they arrive. I think you should be slightly less forthright with what is just pure maths theorycraft. I mean no-one thinks this is going to happen but PP has already obviously decided we are going to have heavy-hitting jack heavies with the theme bonus, it is definitely part of our identity. I mean our threat range is about one of the biggest natural counters that basically the majority of other factions have against us... we are sloooow One correction; My fault. I forgot that FM no longer applied to Light jacks. So scratch the Dervish under Amon. Up it to a crusader and add 5 damage per mace swing. Most of the stable is charging 7+1, 8+1 or 8+2. So 8-10. That's pretty average without speed buffs. There are speed buffs in your faction as there are in others. It seems pretty average/balanced. PoM is not slow. Cryx, cygnar, mercs, minnions, CoC, Ret, Trolls all average about the same. Some just have more and/or better gun ranges. But land speed is about the same. FM Is very powerful. Look at the outrage about Flank in the new Cryx theme and they, at this point in time, have absolutely terrible infantry to trigger it with. Handing out the equivalent stat increase of Circle's Primal without it's built in downside is clearly powerful. The loss of a single infantry model is going to happen in the game. No infantry out there survives the entire game without loosing a single dude. So triggering the effect is not a restriction or impossibility. I can understand the imaginary "choir tax" is still a very intrinsic superstition. I will argue that it's not real as the "tax" is the point cost of the choir. If there was no choir would the crusader be 8 points? or Pow 20? Either way that's beyond the perceived "norm" The problem is that without actually thinking, as you call "theorycrafting" to give an undeserved negative connotation, about what is possible with a proposed change you are doing nothing but wasting brain cells and bandwidth. Everyone in Legion wanted Azraels animus to be Horgle 2's feat. It would be absolutely game breaking in a hundred different ways. But it was "what they want" so everyone ran with it, like is happening now here and still in the Legion boards. Someone over there is trying to rewrite half the faction and all of the themes because they believe themselves to be better game devs than the company. I'm sorry but I disapproved of his Def 17 Arm 28 Legionnaires just as much as I disprove this imaginary model and other outlandish concepts such as "remove all fire immunity" or "oil special rule in the all fire faction is demanded cuz fire status is not good enough against everything" but "corrosive is fine". I apologize that I rain on peoples parades. But these "suggestion" and "fixes" are all being put forward with the intent that they be implemented. I cannot sit by and watch crazy ideas run wild with no consideration to balance when what people say they want IS balance.
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Post by c0deb1ue on Oct 9, 2017 16:47:42 GMT
I mean our threat range is about one of the biggest natural counters that basically the majority of other factions have against us... we are sloooow One correction; My fault. I forgot that FM no longer applied to Light jacks. So scratch the Dervish under Amon. Up it to a crusader and add 5 damage per mace swing. Most of the stable is charging 7+1, 8+1 or 8+2. So 8-10. That's pretty average without speed buffs. There are speed buffs in your faction as there are in others. It seems pretty average/balanced. PoM is not slow. Cryx, cygnar, mercs, minnions, CoC, Ret, Trolls all average about the same. Some just have more and/or better gun ranges. But land speed is about the same. FM Is very powerful. Look at the outrage about Flank in the new Cryx theme and they, at this point in time, have absolutely terrible infantry to trigger it with. Handing out the equivalent stat increase of Circle's Primal without it's built in downside is clearly powerful. The loss of a single infantry model is going to happen in the game. No infantry out there survives the entire game without loosing a single dude. So triggering the effect is not a restriction or impossibility. I can understand the imaginary "choir tax" is still a very intrinsic superstition. I will argue that it's not real as the "tax" is the point cost of the choir. If there was no choir would the crusader be 8 points? or Pow 20? Either way that's beyond the perceived "norm" The problem is that without actually thinking, as you call "theorycrafting" to give an undeserved negative connotation, about what is possible with a proposed change you are doing nothing but wasting brain cells and bandwidth. Everyone in Legion wanted Azraels animus to be Horgle 2's feat. It would be absolutely game breaking in a hundred different ways. But it was "what they want" so everyone ran with it, like is happening now here and still in the Legion boards. Someone over there is trying to rewrite half the faction and all of the themes because they believe themselves to be better game devs than the company. I'm sorry but I disapproved of his Def 17 Arm 28 Legionnaires just as much as I disprove this imaginary model and other outlandish concepts such as "remove all fire immunity" or "oil special rule in the all fire faction is demanded cuz fire status is not good enough against everything" but "corrosive is fine". I apologize that I rain on peoples parades. But these "suggestion" and "fixes" are all being put forward with the intent that they be implemented. I cannot sit by and watch crazy ideas run wild with no consideration to balance when what people say they want IS balance. well the choir tax is intrinsically the cost of the choir and the idea that all our jacks will be designed around the concept that they get +0/+2. There’s not a chance it’s superstition/imaginary as it’ s interwoven into the fabric of our faction design. You have to take the choir... it costs more points... it is the intention of PP that we take the choir and please let’s not start the “you don’t have to take the choir” conversation. You personally (from your comments) rarely have anything negative to say about protectorate and seem to think everything is very strong/perfect. That’s an uncommon opinion for any faction, let alone this one. We definitely need a balance between the over-positive and over-negative opinions so I am all for crazy ideas and then scaling back rather than just shooting everything down too hard. Though constructive criticism is always a good thing
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Provengreil
Junior Strategist
Choir Kills: 12
Posts: 850
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Post by Provengreil on Oct 9, 2017 16:58:04 GMT
I mean our threat range is about one of the biggest natural counters that basically the majority of other factions have against us... we are sloooow One correction; My fault. I forgot that FM no longer applied to Light jacks. So scratch the Dervish under Amon. Up it to a crusader and add 5 damage per mace swing. Most of the stable is charging 7+1, 8+1 or 8+2. So 8-10. That's pretty average without speed buffs. There are speed buffs in your faction as there are in others. It seems pretty average/balanced. PoM is not slow. Cryx, cygnar, mercs, minnions, CoC, Ret, Trolls all average about the same. Some just have more and/or better gun ranges. But land speed is about the same. FM Is very powerful. Look at the outrage about Flank in the new Cryx theme and they, at this point in time, have absolutely terrible infantry to trigger it with. Handing out the equivalent stat increase of Circle's Primal without it's built in downside is clearly powerful. The loss of a single infantry model is going to happen in the game. No infantry out there survives the entire game without loosing a single dude. So triggering the effect is not a restriction or impossibility. I can understand the imaginary "choir tax" is still a very intrinsic superstition. I will argue that it's not real as the "tax" is the point cost of the choir. If there was no choir would the crusader be 8 points? or Pow 20? Either way that's beyond the perceived "norm" The problem is that without actually thinking, as you call "theorycrafting" to give an undeserved negative connotation, about what is possible with a proposed change you are doing nothing but wasting brain cells and bandwidth. Everyone in Legion wanted Azraels animus to be Horgle 2's feat. It would be absolutely game breaking in a hundred different ways. But it was "what they want" so everyone ran with it, like is happening now here and still in the Legion boards. Someone over there is trying to rewrite half the faction and all of the themes because they believe themselves to be better game devs than the company. I'm sorry but I disapproved of his Def 17 Arm 28 Legionnaires just as much as I disprove this imaginary model and other outlandish concepts such as "remove all fire immunity" or "oil special rule in the all fire faction is demanded cuz fire status is not good enough against everything" but "corrosive is fine". I apologize that I rain on peoples parades. But these "suggestion" and "fixes" are all being put forward with the intent that they be implemented. I cannot sit by and watch crazy ideas run wild with no consideration to balance when what people say they want IS balance. When writing the MK 3 POM insider, PP themselves spoke of the choir tax as a design issue. it''s not imaginary. Nor is the fact that fire immunity is immune to most of our shooting, several of our feats, and one of our more pervasive defenses. Also, no one here has said "corrosion is fine". we don't do corrosion though, so we don't discuss it much. While I understand your issues with wishlisting, you seem unwilling to admit that there are unnecessary weaknesses all throughout the faction, and the beneficial offsets are often not quite there. Trolls are another victim of this. If all we do is wait for PP to hand down changes without speaking of our needs, Haley 2 and Stormlances would still be overpowered, and deliverers would still be POW 8 CRA.
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Post by ForEver_Blight on Oct 9, 2017 17:37:55 GMT
When writing the MK 3 POM insider, PP themselves spoke of the choir tax as a design issue. it''s not imaginary. Nor is the fact that fire immunity is immune to most of our shooting, several of our feats, and one of our more pervasive defenses. Also, no one here has said "corrosion is fine". we don't do corrosion though, so we don't discuss it much. While I understand your issues with wishlisting, you seem unwilling to admit that there are unnecessary weaknesses all throughout the faction, and the beneficial offsets are often not quite there. Trolls are another victim of this. If all we do is wait for PP to hand down changes without speaking of our needs, Haley 2 and Stormlances would still be overpowered, and deliverers would still be POW 8 CRA. There is a distinct difference from a weakness and a supposed "unnecessary" weakness. I have yet to see anything in PoM as unnecessary. Nor in Legion. Nor Minions. Nor Cryx. Nor Khador. Circle however... I could make a list. I am in a positive mindset because I am coming from a gods awful downtrodden hatred of the game because I was playing a faction that no matter what I put on the table it never held a candle to the other side. The argument still reigns that WM > H. I have found absolutely nothing yet in PoM that I see as unbalanced or "weak" (taking into account the new CID changes. Deliverers were dumb before hand.) So I cannot fathom going from well balanced to outright insane with the amount of wishlisting. Add to that the blatant malice towards evidence, like you're not actually supposed to think of the interaction adding these rules would create. And again you are starting from a much more balanced perspective. I hate the crap people are crying to have happen in Legion because they are bonkers. They have no concept of what is reasonable. I understand there is a weakness to fire immunity. All but 2 Legion beats deal fire damage, I have a caster whose feat also requires things to be on fire. You might know him; he's a very popular topic here. But I am not going balls to the wall crazy over fire immunity. Yes, you have it a bit worse. But you clearly have a ton of power outside of it. You completely discredit your weapon master or battle driven, or BOTH, infantry. You are absolutely assured that you have no denial when you have boat loads and all of it is faction specific. You have themes that give some of the BEST bonuses in the game. Yet you are not satisfied. You are willfully clinging to your woe-is-me rhetoric and cannot set aside your bias of "It's not [this] so it's trash!" sort of mentality. I'm no fool. I can only imagine your judgements of me. But I can't begin to feel as depressed and sour about PoM as I do Legion. So, again, I apologize that my positive outlook on "your" faction is undesirable.
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Post by c0deb1ue on Oct 9, 2017 18:16:26 GMT
Over-positive is just as useless for feedback as over-negative unfortunately, regardless of the justification for either position. The only thing of note is in the real world people prepare for worse case scenarios and being over-negative is safer
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draycos
Junior Strategist
Posts: 167
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Post by draycos on Oct 9, 2017 19:27:44 GMT
As a Protectorate player (used to play Legion) I will totally admit that POM overall is in a much better spot than certain other factions, but we are not the top either. For me, I do not want our faction to be leaps and bounds ahead of anyone else, I just want to fix the few things that are dragging behind. Internally we are very well balanced. This makes it even more apparent when something is not keeping pace with everything else.
I understand that our Weapon masters are good and we have more of them than anyone else. I understand that we have many good options and play styles. That fact doesn't fix our nearly unplayable Heavy infantry (cinerators and bastions) or other models. Saying "X is good so you shouldn't care that Y is bad" does nothing to help the game. No army has a 100% playable roster. I get that. But shouldn't that be the goal?
As for wish listing...even if 99% of it is over the top, it's just wish-listing. That 99% of OP and broken wish-listing will not effect game play in any way. Besides, that 1% of good ideas might be seen by a PP game designer and just might result in a balanced and healthy change to the game down the road. In all reality, PP's CID strategy revolves around releasing "wish list" models and abilities and then toning them down to a balanced state.
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