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Post by sand20go on May 2, 2017 16:55:26 GMT
Yeah, that's the way I was sort of thinking about it, like getting a bunch of high impact attacks on a charge from one and maybe killing something juicy for the investment of one or 2 Uhlans, or in the course of a crazy assassination run where models surviving until the next turn are a non issue. Bingo. My understanding of last stand was vastly improved (I am an experiential learner which can make Warmachine hard) when I watched it with Skorne. You only are removed _IF_ you make a melee attack. You do not have to make said melee attacks and thus you apply what you need in the volume you need and just keep on going. 2 Uhlans enough? Send 2.
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Post by auraco on May 2, 2017 17:10:34 GMT
Last stand seems situational to me, I've yet to cast it. I've played 4 games with Strakhov2, all win. Maybe if things get more desperate I'll need to cast it but so far I've been ok with killing stuff slower but without losing my own stuff. Thanks to precision strike you can take two turn to kill a jack and still be ok because you can go after the releveant systems like cortex and main weapon, or spirit. If you can get stuff on a caster it would probably be worth it, but all my wins so far have been scenario win.
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Post by sand20go on May 2, 2017 18:24:26 GMT
Last stand seems situational to me, I've yet to cast it. I've played 4 games with Strakhov2, all win. Maybe if things get more desperate I'll need to cast it but so far I've been ok with killing stuff slower but without losing my own stuff. Thanks to precision strike you can take two turn to kill a jack and still be ok because you can go after the releveant systems like cortex and main weapon, or spirit. If you can get stuff on a caster it would probably be worth it, but all my wins so far have been scenario win. Last standed Beserkers or Mauraders are way too much fun. Yes, you are not forcing them to expend models to kill off the 10 points but they trade WAY up when then do that. I do agree however - precision strike WITH critical knockdown AND reach is near back breaking for MANY armies. Also do keep in mind - last stand can be fully leverages with CMAs.....thus your "attacking" model IS making a melee attack but the rest are not. So you can really up the damage done by a IFP. Also do not underestimate the value of deterrence. People that know what that spell can do will be tempted to keep things FAR away from what it is on....and that in turn can make it more valuable than theory crafting. I have 1 loss and 4 wins with him. The loss was a "bad" (worst?) match up - Kruger 2 and even that was not THAT far from a win - with just some poor rolls to remove the stones and get the scenario pressure I needed for the win.
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Post by auraco on May 2, 2017 19:16:43 GMT
I'm sure last stand will come up, it just hasn't for me so far, it probably will some day though. I'm really liking precision strike against warmachine, it allows to get some good mileage out of Strakhov's gun, as long as you can cripple the movement system on a jack you are pretty free to shoot with the AP gun without too much fear of hitting your own guys. It's also wonderful on the ulhans who have a good crit chance with the cavalry charge, knock something down, cripple cortex or spirit, reposition 3 away and watch the thing just stand up and look stupid not able to reach the ulhans. The list does have bad match up. I went against Thexus and I won the game mostly because I was lucky on my tough roll on the great bear than anything else...And Strakhov has good scenario presence with reposition 5. Not a match up I see going for me most of the time.
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Post by sand20go on May 2, 2017 19:38:39 GMT
I'm sure last stand will come up, it just hasn't for me so far, it probably will some day though. I'm really liking precision strike against warmachine, it allows to get some good mileage out of Strakhov's gun, as long as you can cripple the movement system on a jack you are pretty free to shoot with the AP gun without too much fear of hitting your own guys. It's also wonderful on the ulhans who have a good crit chance with the cavalry charge, knock something down, cripple cortex or spirit, reposition 3 away and watch the thing just stand up and look stupid not able to reach the ulhans. The list does have bad match up. I went against Thexus and I won the game mostly because I was lucky on my tough roll on the great bear than anything else...And Strakhov has good scenario presence with reposition 5. Not a match up I see going for me most of the time. I think the bad ones include any caster that can deny ORDERS (so, for example, Krugar2) because that shuts down your 4 Arm swing with Shield wall AND makes ulhans particularly sad. Purification casters PROBABLY also are a problem though that highly depends on when the pulse comes and whether it is back breaking or just irritating.
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Post by Soul Samurai on May 2, 2017 19:50:50 GMT
The renewed discussion has got me thinking about what jacks you would want with Strakhov. The thing is, while all his spells work on jacks, it feels like you're probably going to want them on infantry most games? Inviolable Resolve might be an exception depending on your list I think. Based on that logic, I'm thinking:
Torch You know, it only just occurred to me that Torch gets Sprint under Strak II. Not sure how much value it has without a speed buff, but perhaps it's an argument for actually giving him Quicken? Dunno, might be worth a try I suppose. Brings a bit of Pathfinder too.
Destroyers If you're running SPD 4 jacks, you might as well take ones with long range guns. Might even make good targets for Return Fire: either leave them alone or deal with even more 4" AOEs scattering over your infantry?
Behemoth Same logic as the Destroyers, but with Strak II's lower WJPs theres more of an argument for taking Behemoth over two Destroyers than with your average 28 WJP caster. Plus if you can only speed up one jack, having a beatstick who can destroy almost any heavy might be better than a P+S 17 Destroyer when you really need that power concentrated on one point. Also more focus efficient, and with the number of upkeeps Strak II's going to have out that could be significant.
Kodiak & Grolar The problem Strak II's jacks (especially melee jacks) will probably have is getting left behind by super fast infantry. The Kodiak and Grolar don't suffer this to the same extent, plus they have Pathfinder which Strak II can't give out. I'm thinking that one with Inviolable Resolve can afford to run forwards into the enemy charge range and try to tank their alpha; a different jack would not get as far up as quickly of course.
Clamjacks Strakhov II looks like he can be built to present something of an armour skew. If that's what you're doing then maybe bring the toughest armour of the lot?
Pure theorymachine here unfortunately. Does any of it make any sense?
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Post by welshhoppo on May 2, 2017 20:29:28 GMT
I run Kodiaks with St2.
They can run just fast enough to keep up with the army, but more importantly they have pathfinder, which Strakhov has no way of giving out.
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Post by auraco on May 2, 2017 21:02:30 GMT
With only 22 jacks points I don't think Strakhov2 wants to take expansive jack, he already has low jack points and if far from being a jack caster. Yes inviolable resolve on a jack can be good, but quicken is probably the most expansive and worst spd buff for a jack we have in faction, it should be kept for units. The list I run has a kodiak and a juggernaut, but they are mostly filler since so far they haven't been doing much, like at all... Worst case was against Thexus where the juggy ran forward for 3 because even by turn 3 he was out of range of everything, including the enemy objective (that damn feat pushed him too far back to even get a charge on it). The pikemen and ulhans will do the heavy lifting with the great bears for scalpelling what need to be removed fast. I would be curious try a conquest with him, inviolable resolve on a conquest sounds like an awesome idea, problem is delivering that conquest without a spd buff.
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Post by sand20go on May 2, 2017 21:36:29 GMT
I think his jack load out depends on whether in theme or not. In theme I think you want jacks for Last Stand (I know, I am a broken record). 9 point POW 16 weaponmaster Zerkers that can blow up prior to removed from game and 10 point Marauders which can be hitting for 4 dice multiple times on a huge based model. You can, of course, drop the spell prior to sending them in and just use em normally.
Again, if they are shooting at your 9 point zerker cause they are scared of it getting into things with last stand that seems like.....wining.
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Post by skathrex on May 3, 2017 7:40:12 GMT
I am in a camp with auraco here.
In theme there is just not much space for jacks, so its Kodiak and Jugger for me. Maybe after retooling I could play Jugger and Destroyer, because those aren't half bad with him. Since you often have 1-2 Focus to spare for boosted guns.
I am not a fan of expansive Jacks, but I can see Behemoth as out of theme. Even if I would like 2 Jacks more atm for SR17 and Attrition.
Last Stand and Jacks for it is a tricky question. I would love to try it, but that package is a bit more expansive than 2 Jacks (you have to take 3 to get the WJPs)
Last Stand in general is somewhat of a Poison Pill (see what I did there?). Its not bad but has to be applied with caution. I made a point of trying it in my first games and at least half the time its bad. Its really for situations where X has to die now. When you don't have a priority target its mostly bad. In some Situations with CMAs it works well, but loosing models without your opponent having to invest anything is really bad for attrition.
To be quite honest my interest in SK2 is diminishing atm, because he is not half as interesting as SK1. Its mostly casting buffs and positioning. I enjoy the LoS though. Maybe I will switch it to Z1 and try SK2 in a diffrent build.
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Post by sand20go on May 8, 2017 6:11:41 GMT
Quick update. Played Juris (yes, teeth pulling but it is good for me) with his Haley2/Gaston/Hurrican list. Killed MANY people top of 2 at KingdomCon. Anyway, the thing we learned today is that you probably want a destroyer in Strak2's battlegroup or you really don't have a way to pluck out the solos you need to (ATGM, E1, Gaston himself). With no anti magic TK and that backstrike bonus will be a "thing". Now I probably could have played a "perfect" game with a solid strategy and overcome it (but that ain't me) but I think you get the points for the destroyer - which you can do if you go Rager+Destroyer or event Kodiak+Destroyer with only 1 IFK. It sucks but you need to have the shooting or you are going to find yourself "sad" when you want to get rid of a higher value solo.
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Post by auraco on May 8, 2017 13:43:30 GMT
What is the Haley2 Gaston Hurricane list exactly? I haven't played against Haley2 with Strakhov2 so far, but the destroyer doesn't sound like a bad idea, it's pretty much the only spot removal available to the list and it's not too expansive. I'm not a big fan of the rager, but with the points available to the list it is not out of the question.
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Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578
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Post by Juris on May 8, 2017 16:16:33 GMT
What is the Haley2 Gaston Hurricane list exactly? I haven't played against Haley2 with Strakhov2 so far, but the destroyer doesn't sound like a bad idea, it's pretty much the only spot removal available to the list and it's not too expansive. I'm not a big fan of the rager, but with the points available to the list it is not out of the question. Armory - Steamroller Objective Major Victoria Haley - WJ: +25 - Squire - PC: 5 - Thorn - PC: 13 - Hurricane - PC: 39 (Battlegroup Points Used: 25) Journeyman Warcaster - PC: 4 - Firefly - PC: 8 Gastone Crosse - PC: 4 - Talon - PC: 7 Captain Arlan Strangewayes - PC: 4 Eiryss, Mage Hunter of Ios - PC: 7 Gun Mage Captain Adept - PC: 5 Gorman Di Wulfe, Rogue Alchemist - PC: 4
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Post by sand20go on May 8, 2017 16:34:33 GMT
I have only a few minutes auraco but let me elaborate on Juris's list.
There are several foundation pieces so this wont' cover them all:
- TK and then Gastone shoots. This leverages Haley's spell AND the ability to future sigh (and squire reroll) on the off change she actually misses with it. Now turned around Gaston shoots and boosts so 4 dice at POW 12 which will hurt our jacks. He can reload and do it again.
- Talon+Thorn. Here we are stalling stuff AND then disrupting it. Should we wish we also have e1 to disrupt as well. That allows Haley to control (or in my parlance, defeat in detail).
- Hurricane - we can slam small and medium sized stuff with the Hurricane's Thurder charge so that gives us the ability to knock non-IV infantry around (plus look for assination charges on non-stealthy Strak
- ATMG - flare
There are other things but those are the ones that seemed to matter the most last night.
Now then, there are "answers" here. ATGM can "flare" but it ain't Spriggan's Targeting Flare (PP really needs to clean this up at some point just for clarity). So yes, Strak can then be hit but, other than by the ATMG, not behind the clouds. I missplayed the Ulhans I think. While TK would have done work on Pikes far better to lose them than the Uhlans who could have simply sat back and then be committed when Thorn and Talon moved in. Strak CAN move 11 inches if need be. Or stealth. But ultimately it probably is a MUCH worse match up than something like Hark who can simple weather out the feat and use Jump Start to help with the idiotic TK crap. Plus, as noted, the destroyer can really help here - tartetting pretty much every turn the ATGM and hoping to hit the bugger so that Strak can use Stealth much more effectively and not have to worry about the E bolt near autolose.
I will let Juris regale you but my understanding is that he top of 2'ed many folks. Not how last night played out - which ended up being a brutal grind fest which I think I would have been able to do much better with a more aggressive scenario play earlier.
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Post by auraco on May 8, 2017 16:45:08 GMT
Uh, I didn't notice Gastone picked up backstab in mk3, with TK that is effectively really mean. I get the inclusion of the destroyer to kill the GMCA, Strakhov can give himself stealth so it should help against a couple of things in the list, it doesn't mean he's impossible to kill, far from it, it just helps against this list if you can kill the GCMA. The Haley2 list does look like a tough match up.
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