|
Post by bakemono on Mar 15, 2017 5:30:20 GMT
Nobody was treating new people poorly. That is just a lame excuse. In fact, most people went out of their way to answer questions and help newbies. A lot of us had seen this film before, it is going play by play the same way Games Workshop did it. Go figure; it is easier to stick your fingers in your ears and ignore any critiques than it is to actually address them.
|
|
|
Post by oncomingstorm on Mar 15, 2017 6:07:00 GMT
Idk. The negativity was definately getting to me. Like I had a nice week where the forums were nuked where i was like " holy shit i dint have to read the constant salt on the protectorate forums that's nice" (you know who you are) And then the week of being excited for the existence of this forum. But all the negativity is going to transfer over here anyways so the salt is inescapable so i have to just deal with it. I personally don't know who to blame for this negativity. It's not like pp have been making like catastrophic mistakes. Like yeah they've been blundering a decent amount recently. But i think this is because they have been trying too do so many things at once by themselves and in addition the game is huge at this point. Like when it gets this large with this many factions and different models it is really hard to keep a hold of it. Like playtesting a new models interaction with all other possibilities would probably take them months. But they want to keep their release schedule the way it is cause otherwise players will get bored and game will stagnate. Also the hivemind of players with its ability to spot the most competitive broken combos days before the rules are released really isn't helping the health of the game. (Looking at you people that brought Haley2/storm lances to all the tournaments and nothing else. Not that I'm judging i probably would have done the same if i had no soul) First, I would argue that PP IS making catastrophic mistakes. Even if they're not consciously trying to emulate GW, they're giving the appearance of doing so (and in marketing, appearance is everything.) For PP to emulate the very company who same mistakes gave them the breathing room (and clientele) to become as successful as they are is just indescribably dumb. If their marketing team knows one thing about the wargames market, they should know GW's history, and that emulating them is a bad idea. I would agree that you're right that they're trying to do too many things. Releasing Grymkin (taking up valuable resources, CID space, and playtesting time) when half of their core factions are in trouble (in terms of internal balance, if not raw ability to compete) was and remains a boneheaded move. In terms of blaming people for finding broken interactions, I completely disagree. The blame for releasing broken combos and interactions sits squarely on PP, as (until recently) there was no community playtesting process, and thus no feedback mechanism to catch those models before launch (though again, some of them would have been caught by halfway competent playtesting...***cough cough Una 2.***) As for blaming people for playing the best stuff...please. Not only is that just the way wargames work in general, it's also the attitude PP pushed when promoting their game with the (infamous but sadly now-defunct) page 5. Page 5 might be gone, but many of us were attracted to the game for the competitive aspect, and as such it's not surprising many people gravitate towards the best models/interactions. Bottom line, if a model/interaction is too good, it's on PP to fix. Ideally, quickly (so as to not encourage players to buy into the new hotness,) judiciously (ie. NOT nerfing every aspect of a problem interaction simultaneously) and with restraint. They should also be systematically buffing the crap tier of each faction into usability whilst they do this, to counterbalance the inevitable negativity nerfs provoke.
|
|
|
Post by skathrex on Mar 15, 2017 10:28:22 GMT
This thread somewhat tugs on my restraint.
I will try it this way. Hello, I am a fairly new player and these kind of forums are poinson to me. Why you ask? Not because anyone is an ass to me directly (even though my opinions get belittled on a constant basis), but because the negativity that I read. I constantly have to justify how I can possibly enjoy this game, when everything is so bad....newslfash! It isn't! I came from Warhammer, not because I disliked GW or anything they did. I still like the new way GW handels things, their models their fluff. I came because WMH in MK3 is so much fun. The Matchups, Steamroller, the strategic thinking etc. But things like this thread (which I constantly read in the General Discussion Forum on PPs site), are really killing any positivity.
One thing about Wargamers I absolutly despise is the "I know it better" attitude. Everyone is always so extreme in their views. In this thread there as so many people who "know better" than PP does. Without having the broader picture, or seemingly a better understanding how a buisness of PPs size works.
When the company finds that the Forum drives more people away than it keeps, its just a logical step to close it. I am not a fan of it either, but I can understand the reasoning behind it. And with the new CID Forums they get a lot of Feedback. And this time its even construcitve and to the points they want.
Another point is that they can't please everyone. So often I hear people complain about one thing from 2 directions ("They didn't change it enough" "They changed to much") What can PP do? Not much if you ask me. The Erratas were golden imo and I hope they continue on this path. But the same time I can imagine they saw a huge problem. If they fix x (Skorne) or nerf x (Una2), the players whine and salt will just change to the next thing (Buff X, nerf Stormlances), so there changed the System to drive the constructive Feedback towards the models they are currently working on.
By no means has PP stopped communicating with us. They just changed the way how.
I am sorry if I offended anyone, that was not my intend. I am just baffled how many people just follow their own narrative. I can't speak for the MK2 to MK3 transition but in the last half year, this is the only questionable decision imo, and they even explained why they did it. If you don't believe them, then why should they communicate at all?
|
|
eathotlead
Junior Strategist
PP forumite since 2004
Posts: 259
|
Post by eathotlead on Mar 15, 2017 10:38:18 GMT
Idk. The negativity was definitely getting to me... But all the negativity is going to transfer over here anyways so the salt is inescapable so i have to just deal with it. I personally don't know who to blame for this negativity... I think much of the negativity was inadvertently *created by PP by responding to player demands with frequent errata. The intent was noble, I think: Have devs enters the forums themselves to interact with the player base, then fix broken models. But it escalated into an attempt by players to garner devs' attention by complaining more loudly than the next guy. Whine more = rules change for your favorite toy.
Enter the CID. This new forum should've been the spot for any push for model nerfs or buffs, but in a more constructive way. The regular forums could have experienced reduced salt as the mods locked threads that belonged in the (more constructive) CID forums. I'm surprised PP didn't wait to see how the CID forums and related moderating actually worked. Instead it was "nuke from orbit" as some are saying.
|
|
|
Post by droopingpuppy on Mar 15, 2017 10:44:00 GMT
Why we must be positive? We are never be a yes man, and we must not. We just made the response to what PP did, that's all.
It is true that it is impossible to satisfy every single people, and no one deny this. But, their moves of last years are simply terrible. They attacked the someone that support them and us and declared them as the free rider, which they never be, release the new edition with full of errors that insisted that they did the work for 3 years.
At least they can have some word for the errors in the new editions because they fix some of them, but still there are many.
And finally they just close their ears, which is just nonsense. I don't think that they still want to here anything. Well, they does, but only for what they want to hear.
|
|
|
Post by Azuresun on Mar 15, 2017 11:31:54 GMT
Idk. The negativity was definately getting to me. Like I had a nice week where the forums were nuked where i was like " holy shit i dint have to read the constant salt on the protectorate forums that's nice" (you know who you are) And then the week of being excited for the existence of this forum. But all the negativity is going to transfer over here anyways so the salt is inescapable so i have to just deal with it. I personally don't know who to blame for this negativity. It's not like pp have been making like catastrophic mistakes. Like yeah they've been blundering a decent amount recently. But i think this is because they have been trying too do so many things at once by themselves and in addition the game is huge at this point. Like when it gets this large with this many factions and different models it is really hard to keep a hold of it. Like playtesting a new models interaction with all other possibilities would probably take them months. But they want to keep their release schedule the way it is cause otherwise players will get bored and game will stagnate. Also the hivemind of players with its ability to spot the most competitive broken combos days before the rules are released really isn't helping the health of the game. (Looking at you people that brought Haley2/storm lances to all the tournaments and nothing else. Not that I'm judging i probably would have done the same if i had no soul) The thing is, I agree with you that it was tiresome. One thing that often gets missed on the internet is that you can make a good point in a bad way, and aggression and hyperbole doesn't make people agree with you, it just makes them give up on talking to you. And that was what we saw on the old forums, where the same few people would keep coming into threads and dragging them down into shouting matches between themselves while other posters either got sucked into the cycle of aggression and snark, or just quit. Look at the names in any flamey topic, rather than the number of posts, and you would get a sense of familiarity very quickly. But I'm pretty certain that banning / cracking down hard on maybe a half-dozen shouty forum warriors (and I think we all know who they were) would have instantly improved the tone. Or giving nerf/buff topics their own forum to die in, and actively moving threads across to exile them from general discussion. I'm not going to cry censorship or anything hyperbolic, but going from zero to shutting the forums down entirely just feels lazy more than anything else.
|
|
|
Post by skathrex on Mar 15, 2017 11:40:26 GMT
Why we must be positive? We are never be a yes man, and we must not. We just made the response to what PP did, that's all. It is true that it is impossible to satisfy every single people, and no one deny this. But, their moves of last years are simply terrible. They attacked the someone that support them and us and declared them as the free rider, which they never be, release the new edition with full of errors that insisted that they did the work for 3 years. At least they can have some word for the errors in the new editions because they fix some of them, but still there are many. And finally they just close their ears, which is just nonsense. I don't think that they still want to here anything. Well, they does, but only for what they want to hear. Well...why must we negative? We don't need to deny everything good they did and we shouldn't. My post was not about being negative or positive. If you are a critical person thats fine. The Problems with the Forums is just that there is too much unconstructive criticism. X is bad doesn't help. And at least in my way the bad outweight the good. There were some really good posts with good anlysis etc thats true, but many many many more that just sreamed "Fix this/Fix that" That is a pretty bad thing to read for a new player. No one wants to enter a broken system (which it is not) As mentioned previously I can't speak for the transition from MK2 to MK3 and I heard a lot of bad things about it. But since the January Errata was announced (I think somewhere on octobre) I don't see any really terrible mistakes, or at leas more good than bad. Some decisions (Forums, Pressgangers) don't seem popular (not even with them) they have their merrit (imo). Your last paragraph is just plain wrong imo. You can still post feedback, we just lost the Faction Forums which (thx to Lormahordes) we actually didn't loose. And if you look at the CID Forum you will see a lot of feedback and discussion between PP and the players.
|
|
|
Post by droopingpuppy on Mar 15, 2017 11:53:11 GMT
Why we must be positive? We are never be a yes man, and we must not. We just made the response to what PP did, that's all. It is true that it is impossible to satisfy every single people, and no one deny this. But, their moves of last years are simply terrible. They attacked the someone that support them and us and declared them as the free rider, which they never be, release the new edition with full of errors that insisted that they did the work for 3 years. At least they can have some word for the errors in the new editions because they fix some of them, but still there are many. And finally they just close their ears, which is just nonsense. I don't think that they still want to here anything. Well, they does, but only for what they want to hear. Well...why must we negative? We don't need to deny everything good they did and we shouldn't. My post was not about being negative or positive. If you are a critical person thats fine. The Problems with the Forums is just that there is too much unconstructive criticism. X is bad doesn't help. And at least in my way the bad outweight the good. There were some really good posts with good anlysis etc thats true, but many many many more that just sreamed "Fix this/Fix that" That is a pretty bad thing to read for a new player. No one wants to enter a broken system (which it is not) As mentioned previously I can't speak for the transition from MK2 to MK3 and I heard a lot of bad things about it. But since the January Errata was announced (I think somewhere on octobre) I don't see any really terrible mistakes, or at leas more good than bad. Some decisions (Forums, Pressgangers) don't seem popular (not even with them) they have their merrit (imo). Your last paragraph is just plain wrong imo. You can still post feedback, we just lost the Faction Forums which (thx to Lormahordes) we actually didn't loose. And if you look at the CID Forum you will see a lot of feedback and discussion between PP and the players. We don't have to and I didn't force you or the others to do at all, but I am personally want to argue about PP because it is the response of what PP did. That is the reason. So, why not? They made me angry by some reason, so I just said 'they made me angry because of something.' I don't hate their very existance. I am, just unpleasant for some bad moves what they did, and the responsibility for this is belong to PP themselves. It is totally fine to say positive for PP, but it is not fine to stop to say negative for PP - just same as it is not fine to stop to say positive for PP as well. And, then it is fine to remove the general discussions and faction forums? There is not even single fault for them since PP forum is run by PP, not by me or anyone else. However, removal of these forums, only about two days of vague announce, is no more than a betrayal for me and the other users. Although I am not the native english speaker, I didn't fully aware that faction forums are vanshed.... There are many people that ask for the danger, but I didn't see any confirmed sticked post about that. Maybe I didn't check it if it there it was, though. Removal of general discussions and faction forum seems, just close their ears and nothing more. Just remove the place to discussion, and check some portion of opinion(no one think that PP forum users are represent the whole gamers, but indeed they are a part of them). Creation of CID forum is totally fine and it does nothing with this topic, for it have no relation with PP forum before. Also it is true that they hear the opinions about the game rules itself, or the forum lost its own purpose. But, not only the game rules are the problems for now.
|
|
|
Post by W0lfBane on Mar 15, 2017 11:55:55 GMT
This thread somewhat tugs on my restraint. I will try it this way. Hello, I am a fairly new player and these kind of forums are poinson to me. Why you ask? Not because anyone is an ass to me directly (even though my opinions get belittled on a constant basis), but because the negativity that I read. I constantly have to justify how I can possibly enjoy this game, when everything is so bad....newslfash! It isn't! I came from Warhammer, not because I disliked GW or anything they did. I still like the new way GW handels things, their models their fluff. I came because WMH in MK3 is so much fun. The Matchups, Steamroller, the strategic thinking etc. But things like this thread (which I constantly read in the General Discussion Forum on PPs site), are really killing any positivity. One thing about Wargamers I absolutly despise is the "I know it better" attitude. Everyone is always so extreme in their views. In this thread there as so many people who "know better" than PP does. Without having the broader picture, or seemingly a better understanding how a buisness of PPs size works. When the company finds that the Forum drives more people away than it keeps, its just a logical step to close it. I am not a fan of it either, but I can understand the reasoning behind it. And with the new CID Forums they get a lot of Feedback. And this time its even construcitve and to the points they want. Another point is that they can't please everyone. So often I hear people complain about one thing from 2 directions ("They didn't change it enough" "They changed to much") What can PP do? Not much if you ask me. The Erratas were golden imo and I hope they continue on this path. But the same time I can imagine they saw a huge problem. If they fix x (Skorne) or nerf x (Una2), the players whine and salt will just change to the next thing (Buff X, nerf Stormlances), so there changed the System to drive the constructive Feedback towards the models they are currently working on. By no means has PP stopped communicating with us. They just changed the way how. I am sorry if I offended anyone, that was not my intend. I am just baffled how many people just follow their own narrative. I can't speak for the MK2 to MK3 transition but in the last half year, this is the only questionable decision imo, and they even explained why they did it. If you don't believe them, then why should they communicate at all? Hey man if you're having fun you don't have to explain yourself to anyone. I'm kind of stuck in the same position. Mostly these threads get me worried about the longevity of the game. Like if so many people are complaining will i have peeps to play against in the future.
|
|
|
Post by skathrex on Mar 15, 2017 12:57:24 GMT
W0lfBane: Thats exactly what my fear/problem with this is, and why I can understand why they wanted the negative Forums away from their main site. It not nearly as extreme as some of the GW Forums/comments are, but its getting there. I invested a lot in the game because I am so hyped, and I played to many systems that just died. @droopingpupy: I am sorry if I misinterpred one of your points, but at some points you are not easy to follow. Just correct me if I got something wrong. I don't want to prohibet you from beeing negativ, or anything else. I want to convince you that there is no real reason to be, once you broaden your view. I get that people are sad or angry at the removal of the Faction Forums. I am disappointed myself too, mainly because this will be most likely an even more salty Forum. But once I try to see it from their view I understand why they did it, and why. Again imo the CID Forums are a part of this. A streamlining of the process of gathering constructive input, by removing the mixed part of Salt, complaints and constructive input (old Forums) and concenctrating the constructive input on the models they are actually working on themselves (CID Forums). This way they don't have to check and maintain 2 Sites.
|
|
|
Post by Gamingdevil on Mar 15, 2017 13:09:45 GMT
I've already seen someone recommend a Sepulcher for an Asphyxious2 list that had no units. Not only is this list bad because you have no feat, but the player was then recommended a mediocre model that has no synergy with the list and anti-synergy with the caster (can't hide behind his clouds). I was in that thread asking where the feat was and as I was posting I was pretty sure that both the OP and the initial response were trolls, but I didn't want to risk it.
|
|
|
Post by Morganstern on Mar 15, 2017 13:46:20 GMT
When the company finds that the Forum drives more people away than it keeps, its just a logical step to close it. I am not a fan of it either, but I can understand the reasoning behind it. And with the new CID Forums they get a lot of Feedback. And this time its even construcitve and to the points they want. For me the fear is that they closed the forums because they thought that that was what was driving people away, whereas in reality it is likely that PPs new business model is the thing that people find off putting. It is a possibility that PP may be blaming the forums for something that they were never the cause of. Also as others have pointed out I never saw new player treated badly in the old forums. I don't know where that is coming from. The sad thing for me is that a lot of PPs responses of late seem to be very "head in the sand" and I don't think that the company is strong enough to alienate there existing player base. I'm increasingly feeling like the execution MK3 was a major misstep by PP and we may be witnessing their swansong.
|
|
|
Post by droopingpuppy on Mar 15, 2017 13:59:51 GMT
I don't want to prohibet you from beeing negativ, or anything else. I want to convince you that there is no real reason to be, once you broaden your view. I get that people are sad or angry at the removal of the Faction Forums. I am disappointed myself too, mainly because this will be most likely an even more salty Forum. But once I try to see it from their view I understand why they did it, and why. Again imo the CID Forums are a part of this. A streamlining of the process of gathering constructive input, by removing the mixed part of Salt, complaints and constructive input (old Forums) and concenctrating the constructive input on the models they are actually working on themselves (CID Forums). This way they don't have to check and maintain 2 Sites. So, the concentration may a reason? Because it is not good to split the view by two diffrent forums...? It is an interesting viewpoint. Although still I think that removal of some forums are no more than shut up our mouth... It is good to have a place to discuss about game rules, but removing the others seems bad.
|
|
|
Post by skathrex on Mar 15, 2017 14:29:09 GMT
Morganstern: I think that was a misunderstanding. I don't think PP thought that new Players were treated badly in the Forums. The thought was more that the somewhat negative thread drove potential customers away (regardless of whose fault it was) Coincedentally your post is exactly what they don't want to see on their Website, because that is what drives new players away. And as a new player I don't know their policies until I am well settled into the game. I started in September 16 and didn't know about the errata until end of November 16, while the negativity was already noticable (not in Khador gladly). droopingpuppy: The Focus the PP staff pays to the Forum is likely the same as bevor. But its all or mostly on the CID Forums. If the old Forums would be still up, people would feel even more ignored than they already do (even though I find them communicating a lot). Additionally the CID Forums are heavily policed, so there is not much off-topic and people think about their posts more. This makes it a lot easier to find valuable information in the post.
|
|
|
Post by oncomingstorm on Mar 15, 2017 14:59:40 GMT
...(not in Khador gladly). There's your problem. Khador (along with Ret) is the best balanced faction in the game. No wonder you're content to wait on PP to fix problem models at their own pace - you don't actually have many. Try doing so when your faction has more poor options than acceptable ones. We were told that Mk3 would fix the problems of Mk2 (#allnewwar.) We were told that our models would not be invalidated. We have since been told, over and over again, that the game was finished at release. None of these things are true, or are true only in the most literal sense (after all, you CAN still take Mad Dogs.) In terms of the fans knowing better - in many cases we do. We saw it when GW started pulling it's crap (though at that point, my own BS tolerance was higher,) and the community has consistently been the ones to spot the broken stuff, usually within days of it's being spoiled. PP does not have exclusivity on game design expertise.
|
|