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Post by Netherby on May 4, 2017 8:30:30 GMT
Z2 isn't really an option.. Specifically outriders. I thought that at first but the reality is with ghost shot the rifles are really good at killing outriders, they do a cra and on average they kill one per unit a turn.. Is it really that bad? Outriders are crazy fast and you can't CRA into an engaged model. I imagine you just get them stuck right in, feat, profit.
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Post by smoothcriminal on May 4, 2017 12:20:59 GMT
Oh, I just noticed, the Ghost shot doesn't work on Stealth. So Stakhov 1, Strakhov 2, Malakov 2, OW should be safe from ranged assassination. Strakhov 1/Malakov 2 in WG theme seems interesting, they can keep a wgrc unit in stealth permanently to win ranged attrition exchange, and be protected from ranged assassination by sac pawn.
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Post by auraco on May 4, 2017 13:01:07 GMT
Problem with running in winterguard kommand is the ghost pirate, you have no way of dealing with them and they get more each time they kill a winterguard, and winterguard are not exactly hard to kill. As long as he doesn't attack with blackbane himself removing his recursion on this unit is going to be really hard.
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wendan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 785
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Post by wendan on May 4, 2017 13:49:28 GMT
Is anything in that list alive or is it mostly dead?
If it's alive, I'm thinking Old Witch for souls. If it's dead, I'm thinking B2
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Post by smoothcriminal on May 4, 2017 15:10:21 GMT
Problem with running in winterguard kommand is the ghost pirate, you have no way of dealing with them and they get more each time they kill a winterguard, and winterguard are not exactly hard to kill. As long as he doesn't attack with blackbane himself removing his recursion on this unit is going to be really hard. I don't know if caster+Malakov is enough to deal with Blackbane. If it isn't then every non-Butcher caster is locked into Jaws theme. Which isn't that bad considering it has access to stealth units.
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Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578
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Post by Juris on May 4, 2017 16:04:49 GMT
Is anything in that list alive or is it mostly dead? If it's alive, I'm thinking Old Witch for souls. If it's dead, I'm thinking B2 The only living thing in the list is usually the caster (if there is any living at all). Revenant Crew is undead. Blackbanes are undead. Pistol Wraiths and Machine Wraiths are undead. Battle Engine is undead. Nothing is alive.
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wendan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 785
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Post by wendan on May 4, 2017 16:40:13 GMT
Then that sounds like a'Butcherin time to me!
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Juris
Junior Strategist
Posts: 578
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Post by Juris on May 4, 2017 17:11:41 GMT
Then that sounds like a'Butcherin time to me! Butcher3? I don't see why that couldn't work. RFP is a good tool to have, as is Impending Doom and Flashing Blade. The thing to beware is getting the Butcher killed. This will depend a lot upon which Warcaster is at the Cryxian helm, but Pirates can generate more output than you might initially think. For Revenant Crew, Gang and Point Blank means that they each get a MAT7/POW11 charge and then a second POW12 attack. If you are facing a caster that can add in any debuffs (Scything Touch, Parasite, Crippling Grasp, Feats) then they can easily kill a caster. Consider, for instance, what would happen if 5 of them charged Butcher while affected by Skarre1's feat? Butcher would take 5 POW16 charges and 5 POW17 two-dice damage rolls. On average, Butcher would take 8.5 damage 5 times and 6 damage 5 times; even if he had 6 focus for overboosting, he would die. In short, if your plan is to use your caster for most of the heavy lifting, be careful not to over-expose him and get him killed.
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Post by Voodoogk on May 4, 2017 17:14:53 GMT
Z2 isn't really an option.. Specifically outriders. I thought that at first but the reality is with ghost shot the rifles are really good at killing outriders, they do a cra and on average they kill one per unit a turn.. Is it really that bad? Outriders are crazy fast and you can't CRA into an engaged model. I imagine you just get them stuck right in, feat, profit. its worse, you get them stuck right in, feat, you're out of range of the last model, they bring back guys from every unit next turn which can activate and kill more horses. they out threat the outriders on all but feat turn with 20" walk and shoot. They are super cheap with recursion, and every time they kill one horse they just minted money from nothing. usually they'll kill 2-3 a turn. Even when not dealing with an army that comes back, that's the kind of situation that forces me to assassinate early, and the early assassination is hard to manufacture against this list with free bodies to be in the way.
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wendan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 785
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Post by wendan on May 4, 2017 17:19:25 GMT
I'm thinking Butcher 2, Juris. He and old witch have been my preferred dude clearers for a while now, but in my area I've been playing OW since the start of Mk3 pretty heavily. I think bringing B2 back would be a bit of a wild card.
And you are absolutely correct, it's easy to have Butcher overexposed. I guess the goal would be to get three kills, then let the army do some crazy work on feat turn. If it doesn't work out, I'll switch over to the Witch.
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Post by Voodoogk on May 4, 2017 17:27:40 GMT
So I put butch2 on the table again last night for the first night in a while vs kaelyssa. rolled a 6 for turn 2 (kaelyssas feat, nothing in range) rolled a 6 for turn 3 (I had been brain damaged by disco), rolled a 1 every other turn of the game.
I have to play him every now and then to remember why I hate him so much.
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wendan
Junior Strategist
Posts: 785
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Post by wendan on May 4, 2017 17:48:07 GMT
Yeah, he can really screw you over.
But man, when he shines it's glorious!
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Post by sand20go on May 4, 2017 18:06:56 GMT
Is it really that bad? Outriders are crazy fast and you can't CRA into an engaged model. I imagine you just get them stuck right in, feat, profit. its worse, you get them stuck right in, feat, you're out of range of the last model, they bring back guys from every unit next turn which can activate and kill more horses. they out threat the outriders on all but feat turn with 20" walk and shoot. They are super cheap with recursion, and every time they kill one horse they just minted money from nothing. usually they'll kill 2-3 a turn. Even when not dealing with an army that comes back, that's the kind of situation that forces me to assassinate early, and the early assassination is hard to manufacture against this list with free bodies to be in the way. Why you bring Maddy ;-) Now admittedly Maddy is suckering like mad but Butcher can weather out those POW 10s for a long while. God I love her ;-)
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Post by Voodoogk on May 4, 2017 18:11:30 GMT
its worse, you get them stuck right in, feat, you're out of range of the last model, they bring back guys from every unit next turn which can activate and kill more horses. they out threat the outriders on all but feat turn with 20" walk and shoot. They are super cheap with recursion, and every time they kill one horse they just minted money from nothing. usually they'll kill 2-3 a turn. Even when not dealing with an army that comes back, that's the kind of situation that forces me to assassinate early, and the early assassination is hard to manufacture against this list with free bodies to be in the way. Why you bring Maddy ;-) Now admittedly Maddy is suckering like mad but Butcher can weather out those POW 10s for a long while. God I love her ;-) I'm assuming you're talking about my butcher2 post not the one you quoted... But that doesnt make him any more fun when you're getting shot with no focus camp
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Post by sand20go on May 4, 2017 18:18:07 GMT
Why you bring Maddy ;-) Now admittedly Maddy is suckering like mad but Butcher can weather out those POW 10s for a long while. God I love her ;-) I'm assuming you're talking about my butcher2 post not the one you quoted... But that doesnt make him any more fun when you're getting shot with no focus camp
Yes. I dislike this forum and how it handles quotes. I was reponding, in fact, to Juris's missive about B3 who, while vulnerable to those charging pirates is a near untouchable god if he has Maddy near him. Now admittedly the issue is that she will be pawing off shots likely to argus/Butcher after they have been debuffed but it will still take a LOT to kill him. Butcher2 can not do the same. Moreover, I don't like him with just Breserker because that becomes a pain into Menoth dude spam who can shut down Zerker pretty hard. You want something that can shut down, for example, BOTH the pirate boat and, in our little meta, Harby exemp. spam.
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