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Post by Armchair Warrior on May 3, 2017 7:30:51 GMT
Voodoogk, to my recollection, you had previously cracked the code in MK3 with Zerkova 2 with Outriders and A&H plus Valachev. (Out of theme, obviously). Why not resurrect this as a Cryx list and decent anti infantry list with an assassination threat too boot?
I don't own a 2nd unit of Outriders (maybe once we have a theme that supports Greylords it will be time to invest), but maybe something like this? (I think your list had double outriders and a gun carraige.)
Strategy...
...Banishing Ward goes up on the Outriders. Telgish mark probably goes on one of the Eliminators. ...On the approach, your Outriders can flank and spray for days with the benefit of Occult Whispers. ...Aiyanna is dishing out magic weapons to Behemoth. You're getting out 3 boosted magical bombard shots each round. ...Let's say your opponent is seeing the assassination threat, so you need to play for attrition. OK, I think you've got lots of options, including double magic weapons on Elims if you need them to charge through enemy lines and assassinate incorporeal solos.
From Voodoogk's batreps, I seem to recall the assassination threat is pretty wicked if their caster is out of position. I have yet to test this (so Jedi-Zerkova masters, please educate), but doesn't the assassination run go something like this?
Let's say it's Denny on a 3 camp sitting at 16/17, but out of charge range of the elims. I guess this starts with putting an eliminator into position. Zerkova's going to get a HOF'ed (go Sylys) Hoarfrost at dice -3 (3 dice drop 1...decent odds to fish for crit especially if you can get that eliminator into her back arc), feat, cast a free Occult Whisper, and then two spectral fires. Hmmm... I wonder if it's ever better odds to sacrifice the spectral fires to boost the Hoarfrost shot, and then take a 2nd hoarfrost shot. (So, using 4+3 vs. 3+2+2 focus).
Maybe...who's good at math? My gut says if Zerkova has a fair amount of backup, so reducing Denny's DEF is really worth it, lose the spectral fire and fish for the crit freeze. If Denny's camping a full stack so the spectral fire is at better dice, just go for damage. The added wrinkle is that if you land the initial Hoarfrost crit, then you don't need to use your free spell on occult whispers...just crank another hoarfrost (or spectral fire). Hmmm... who has practice with this? (Professor Voodoogk?)
If Denny's less than 18" away, she then needs to worry about 3 boosted bombards. If she's less than 19" away you've got the Aiyanna Kiss threat twice - and I suppose she could be 31" away in a pinch.. It seems you have an interesting order of activation conundrum if you want to be greedy and have distance, since you want Zerkova to go first to feat so you can try this trick twice with boosted attack rolls. The spray ponies are hopefully going to be able to flank, and at boosted 6s are hitting on even odds at dice minus 3 if Aiyanna stuck the kiss.
Obavnik Kommander Zerkova & Reaver Guard - WJ: +24 - Obavnik Kommander Zerkova & Reaver Guard (Cont.) - Sylys Wyshnalyrr, The Seeker - PC: 4 - Behemoth - PC: 25 (Battlegroup Points Used: 24)
Greylord Forge Seer - PC: 4 - Destroyer - PC: 14
Battle Mechaniks - Leader & 3 Grunts: 3 Lady Aiyana & Master Holt - Lady Aiyana & Master Holt: 8 - Koldun Kapitan Valachev - PC: 4 Greylord Outriders - Leader & 4 Grunts: 20 Greylord Ternion - Leader & 2 Grunts: 7 Kayazy Eliminators - Leader & Grunt: 5 Kayazy Eliminators - Leader & Grunt: 5
In terms of the list...I think it could be better (I'm taking suggestions). A previous incarnation (pre forge seers) had more jacks in the battle group, so the mechs made sense as disposable focus batteries. Now they feel like feet on a snake. If I dropped the mechs, I don't rightly know what I'd pick up.
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Post by Netherby on May 3, 2017 9:23:58 GMT
I'm just not seeing any of our theme lists working into Ghost Fleet. I don't think two jacks with magic weapons is enough to deal with the number of models and the recursion. Butcher 2 and 3 in Jaws might be all right given how much work they can get done them selves. But for anyone else they are going to have to be out of theme.
Old Witch1 isn't actually a good answer since they ruled that incorporeal models don't take damage from feats unless they feat specifies it deals magical damage. Scrap jack doesn't have magical attacks. I would be including A&H any way, but getting nothing out of the feat is bad. She would have some game against it and if the bane theme becomes the second list drop she would be great into that.
Zerkova2 is the obvious answer to Cryx. But she sucks so badly into all the other stuff currently. Maybe when the drop a grey lord theme she will be super baller, but currently she has a one trick assassination and good anti infantry abilities. I'm thinking Zerkova1 might actually be the better option at this point.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on May 3, 2017 9:27:12 GMT
Having not encountered the theme yet, what makes Ghost Fleet so deadly without an overwhelming amount of Magic Weapon?
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Post by Soul Samurai on May 3, 2017 10:17:44 GMT
Aiyanna is dishing out magic weapons to Behemoth. You're getting out 3 boosted magical bombard shots each round. Sorry, where's the third shot coming from? Watcher?
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Growl
Junior Strategist
Posts: 496
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Post by Growl on May 3, 2017 10:35:25 GMT
I think the marshaled Destroyer?
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Post by Armchair Warrior on May 3, 2017 10:43:48 GMT
I think the marshaled Destroyer? Yes. Aiyanna on Behemoth for two, and the marshalled Destroyer for one.
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Post by Armchair Warrior on May 3, 2017 10:47:22 GMT
I'm just not seeing any of our theme lists working into Ghost Fleet. I don't think two jacks with magic weapons is enough to deal with the number of models and the recursion. Butcher 2 and 3 in Jaws might be all right given how much work they can get done them selves. ... Zerkova2 is the obvious answer to Cryx. But she sucks so badly into all the other stuff currently. Maybe when the drop a grey lord theme she will be super baller, but currently she has a one trick assassination and good anti infantry abilities. I'm thinking Zerkova1 might actually be the better option at this point. Yes, the current themes are an issue. I haven't played B2 in a loooong time. B3 with 2 marshalled jacks plus his own darn good self, plus Ruin, has some game. Not ideal. Is Z2 really a "bad answer" into everything else? What other matches does she cover? (Not being argumentative...I just don't have the play testing with her). My anchor drop is Karchev in Jaws. I'm currently Marshalling a Destroyer. Wouldn't this work? Karchev the Terrible - WJ: +30 - Kodiak - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13) - Kodiak - PC: 13 (Battlegroup Points Used: 13) - Juggernaut - PC: 12 (Battlegroup Points Used: 4) - Juggernaut - PC: 12 - Marauder - PC: 10 - Marauder - PC: 10 - Marauder - PC: 10 Widowmaker Marksman - PC: 0 Greylord Forge Seer - PC: 0 - Destroyer - PC: 14 Greylord Forge Seer - PC: 0 Widowmaker Scouts - Leader & 3 Grunts: 8 Battle Mechaniks - Leader & 3 Grunts: 3 Destroyer hunts solos, probably prioritizing machine wraiths. The widomakers snipe out Revenant and keep backing up because we really don't want to feed their battle engine souls. In this list if you drop the Widowmakers and Battle Mechanics you can upgrade the Destroyer to Behemoth but I think that might be less good as a list in general because of extra RTW triggers and sheer volume of single wound infantry removal the sniper boat can manufacture each round. I find my 5 snipers can get 2 rounds of shooting in on a unit of weapon masters which is like a warm security blanket for this list... Locally I'm worried about Zaal dude spam and it's healthier to get rid of them when they're *over there* as opposed to *up here."
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Post by GijsB on May 3, 2017 11:31:36 GMT
Having not encountered the theme yet, what makes Ghost Fleet so deadly without an overwhelming amount of Magic Weapon? This is due to the amount of ethereal models, which can cause trouble for you. Blackbane's Ghost Raiders, Pistol Wraiths, Hellslinger Phantom,The wraith engine and Machine Wraiths
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Post by thebuoyancyofwater on May 3, 2017 11:44:18 GMT
I found Irusk2 in Jaws of the Wolf works fine really, and that was when the wraith engine was giving blast immunity to the incorporeal models so I couldn't Airburst them. The pirates got really messed up by the bombards and if any of the solos stood in the wrong place they got blown up too.
From what I've seen, folk (including me) have generally overestimated how much magic attacks they need against Ghost Fleet.
Cheers, Dave
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on May 3, 2017 11:44:48 GMT
This is due to the amount of ethereal models, which can cause trouble for you. Blackbane's Ghost Raiders, Pistol Wraiths, Hellslinger Phantom,The wraith engine and Machine Wraiths Now It fully clicks. On one end you have a horde of guys that keep popping back or growing bigger from killing our guys, and on the other you have a group of guys that either get stronger from killing our guys or grows in size as well.
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Post by smoothcriminal on May 3, 2017 12:12:17 GMT
Yeah, you don't need a lot of magic attacks against them. Bare minimum is 1 on each flank, so they couldn't sit and contest indefinitely with some incorp model. Seer + Destroyer/Demolisher/Behemoth should do fine. Theoretically you may not even need a second one, as you'll have your caster on second flank. Im thinking, Could Devastators be good against Ghost Fleet? They are pretty much immune to everything, and they can just run up and engage the enemy army with the threat of either trampling over them slowly, or just exploding and wiping them all off the map. From my experience against Cryx, Devastators are worse against them than against other factions. They can open them with 2 pt incorp solos. Then you get -3 arm from parasyte, then either -2 from Denny or -2 from scything touch or both. So you end up looking at arm 12-14 jack standing in charge range of their army. And then on top of it they can feedback you to death through it if they bring out a list with satyxis instead of Fleet. Unless you're Karchev or Butcher+Ruin, trying to beat them with jacks is a bad idea. And while Z1 and Z2 CAN build SOMETHING for this you then face a dilemma - there general inability to tune up their armor to crush any sort of armor and thus you are left with 1 list covering just cryx and your second list required to cover everything else.
Z1 is actually decent against armor. All our themes can take care of up to arm 20 by themselves, higher arm is usually a result of upkeep which she can remove.
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Post by Rowdy Dragon on May 3, 2017 12:16:07 GMT
They can open them with 2 pt incorp solos. ...How? Oh Machine Wraiths...Huh. Didn't think about that I suppose. Clever of them. Real Clever.
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Post by auraco on May 3, 2017 12:44:35 GMT
Uh, with D&C on its way out in the CID, there might be something to do with Zerkova2, the battle engine CID is also good for her, the "unlocked" list used one and at the moment the buff it is getting would only help her. With Sigil of power on either behemoth or the gun carriage the list shouldn't have any problem dealing with Ghost fleet or Dark Host. Yes Zerkova2 has some pretty bad match up, but she also has some good match ups. With a no D&C format this could actually help make her viable since there would be no chance to be locked in a bad match up.
I'm curious to see the greylord theme, when it comes, but it will need to include merc with Valachev in order to be viable since she really needs Ayana & Holt with Valachev to be viable
I think Z2 would actually pair really well with something like Strakhov2 in legion of steel.
Something along the lines of Zerkova2 Reinholdt Behemoth Gun Carriage Forge seer Gorman Max Outriders Min Outriders Ayana & Holt + Valachev
You could swap Reinholdt for sylys, both have stong argument for them, lucky charm and spyglass or arcane assist and arcane secrets.
Pair that with: Legion of steel Strakhov2 Kodiak Juggernaut Markov Iron fang kovnik Iron fang kovnik Great bears Full Ulhan Full BlackFang + CA Full RedFang +CA
I might be missing something but would that pairing have obvious bad match ups? The zerkova list should deal with ghost fleet like a charm.
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Post by Netherby on May 3, 2017 15:02:08 GMT
Is Z2 really a "bad answer" into everything else? What other matches does she cover? (Not being argumentative...I just don't have the play testing with her). My anchor drop is Karchev in Jaws. I'm currently Marshalling a Destroyer. Wouldn't this work? I'v played a couple of games with Z2 into Cygnar, Khador and Trolls. Khador was the worst, you have no real support for your jacks and just get out traded. Cygnar is a similar problem, Power 12 sprays just don't get much done against their usual drops, especially with Arcane Shield everywhere. With no jack support on your side its just an up hill battle. You end up having to play around assassination pretty much. Trolls wasn't as bad, since they usually have some amount of okay targets. Your sprays ignore their shield guards and let you snipe out the Stone. If you can remove the Stone then your Power 12s aren't completely terrible. Karchev Jaws is probably not terrible into Ghost Fleet, but I think you need two Marshalled in order to deal with your biggest issues in the Machine Wraiths and Pistol Wraiths. With magic weapons on the feat, the Wraith Engine and Black Banes shouldn't be too much trouble. The problem would be if their second list is Bane theme, which I feel would really ruin Karchevs day.
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Post by borderprince on May 3, 2017 16:01:27 GMT
Yeah, you don't need a lot of magic attacks against them. Bare minimum is 1 on each flank, so they couldn't sit and contest indefinitely with some incorp model. Seer + Destroyer/Demolisher/Behemoth should do fine. Theoretically you may not even need a second one, as you'll have your caster on second flank. ... Z1 is actually decent against armor. All our themes can take care of up to arm 20 by themselves, higher arm is usually a result of upkeep which she can remove. I agree with both these points. You don't have to kill everything in Ghost Fleet. Unless the Cryx player simply sits in scenario zones without attacking with a significant portion of their list, incorporeal will drop on some models at some point. But 2 marshalled destroyers isn't just two jacks with two magic weapons. Its two jacks with magic weapons and potentially two POW 14 AoEs from the Forgeseers. Short-ranged, so you don't want them every turn, but it is an option if you really need it. I'm also inclined to suggest Sorcha1 out of themes, with at least a couple of units of Doomreavers. She has a high enough DEF to be fairly safe from the Cryx shooting and can Freezing Grip revenant crew fairly reliably to help tip the odds
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