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Post by HereComesTomorrow on May 24, 2017 12:43:36 GMT
The throne pretty clearly isn't meant to be killing heavies. The fact that it can help by beating them up a bit is secondary and valuable. You are spending 17 points on anti-infantry, utility and durability that is still useful when you come up against a bunch of (non marauder) warjacks. I really like them as they are. Also, comparing anything in the game to the durability and damage of a marauder for its points is a waste of time, nothing can win that comparison. For some reason people seem to think the BEs need to be able to chew through entire armies while shrugging of boosted Behemoth shells and swatting charging weapon masters aside. As I said on the CID forum its probably meant to be a model for low fury casters to take the place of infantry mulchers like the scythean so their warbeast points are free for armor crackers and it alleviates some of the fury issues on going beast heavy. I disagree with pretty much everything Cheesebeard says in regards to the Throne. I think it's in a great place and its probably going to see a lot of use in my Rhyas list and probably my Fyanna2 list.
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Whiskie
Junior Strategist
Posts: 288
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Post by Whiskie on May 24, 2017 13:01:44 GMT
Yeah for what it's worth I have to say that I think the current CID Throne is great. It has a distinct and useful niche of being tough, decently mobile due to flight, has cool debuffing abilities and rips through infantry like almost nothing else. 17 points almost feels a little too cheap for what it does just in the sense that it feels like we pay about a point more than things are worth in a lot of cases. Getting something that feels appropriately costed for a change actually feels weird. This is doubly true when the Throne will count toward free points in Oracles!
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Post by rhonlore on May 24, 2017 13:02:55 GMT
I think it also has a home with Lylyth1. Parasite for armor cracking and a feat that turns the Throne up to 11 by making it hit damn near everything.
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Post by snotling on May 24, 2017 13:09:00 GMT
I played it with Lyl1.
Double throne and double ravagores in oracles.
Legion Army - 75 / 75 points [Theme] Oracles of Annihilation
(Lylyth 1) Lylyth, Herald of Everblight [+30] - Naga Nightlurker [8] - Nephilim Bolt Thrower [11] - Ravagore [19] - Ravagore [19] - Seraph [14] Throne Of Everblight [17] Throne Of Everblight [17] Blighted Nyss Sorceress & Hellion [0(6)] Blighted Nyss Sorceress & Hellion [0(6)] The Forsaken [0(4)] The Forsaken [0(4)]
Honestly, I think the throne is the character beast she never had.
She fixes hitting and damage, with 4"melee and his huge base, it can charge stuff 18" away from lylyth and still profit from her feat. And the ravagores can shoot over the thrones, thats all kinds of usefull. She also loves the fact, that thrones dont need any fury to function. One could swap in a succubus as one of the free solos, but behind two thrones, lylyth seems way safer than in other lists, and blight storms are soooo usefull in the list.
I still have a gunline that wrecks heavys, a good assasination, but way more staying power than my previous gunline with Lylyth1.
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Post by HereComesTomorrow on May 24, 2017 13:23:40 GMT
I'd never considered Lylyth and the Throne. I need to try this.
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Post by rhonlore on May 24, 2017 14:09:14 GMT
I'd never considered Lylyth and the Throne. I need to try this. Lylyth1 and Rhyas1 are two of my favorite casters right now, and I think the changes to the Throne make it incredible for both of those casters. Having a what amounts to a Heavy warbeast that requires no fury support is incredible for them. I don't think I would want to play two Thrones with Rhyas, but I do love the Oracle's list shared above for Lyl1.
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Post by HereComesTomorrow on May 24, 2017 14:51:43 GMT
I'd never considered Lylyth and the Throne. I need to try this. Lylyth1 and Rhyas1 are two of my favorite casters right now, and I think the changes to the Throne make it incredible for both of those casters. Having a what amounts to a Heavy warbeast that requires no fury support is incredible for them. I don't think I would want to play two Thrones with Rhyas, but I do love the Oracle's list shared above for Lyl1. The Throne was a staple in my Rhyas lists in Mk2, I was hugely disappointed when I used it in my Mk3 list before the CID. Honestly out of all the Legion warlock stable I only REALLY like Rhyas1 and Abby2 and it's basically pointless with Abby2. Fyanna2 seems like a laugh as well. I liked the Lylyths when I first started playing them but a friend decided to adopt Lylyth as his pet warlock so I didn't get to play them much without stepping on his toes but he's moved on to Ret now. Thags2 looks like he could be fun with Unnatural Aggression on it to dissuade plinking it to death.
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Post by Cheesebeard on May 24, 2017 15:24:49 GMT
The throne pretty clearly isn't meant to be killing heavies. The fact that it can help by beating them up a bit is secondary and valuable. You are spending 17 points on anti-infantry, utility and durability that is still useful when you come up against a bunch of (non marauder) warjacks. I really like them as they are. Also, comparing anything in the game to the durability and damage of a marauder for its points is a waste of time, nothing can win that comparison. I disagree with pretty much everything Cheesebeard says in regards to the Throne. I think it's in a great place and its probably going to see a lot of use in my Rhyas list and probably my Fyanna2 list. The Throne is the slowest melee battle engine at SPD 5, doesn't threaten heavies without significant buffs, has an unremarkable ranged threat of one spell without Necrophage, and offers no support to its army while making its way upfield. Those have been my talking points, and while I'm not sure how you can disagree with them, I brought them up because I want to encourage thoughtful discussion of its shortcomings. What the Throne does do well is slay masses of infantry, provided there are enough of them in range, and as long as they're not high DEF, tough, immune to spells, etc. I'm fine with what the Throne does once it gets to melee, what I would most like to see in its development is the means to get it into its combat turns a little faster through tools like reposition, or provide it with some support utility to its army while making its way upfield.
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Post by HereComesTomorrow on May 24, 2017 16:35:36 GMT
I disagree with pretty much everything Cheesebeard says in regards to the Throne. I think it's in a great place and its probably going to see a lot of use in my Rhyas list and probably my Fyanna2 list. The Throne is the slowest melee battle engine at SPD 5, doesn't threaten heavies without significant buffs, has an unremarkable ranged threat of one spell without Necrophage, and offers no support to its army while making its way upfield. Those have been my talking points, and while I'm not sure how you can disagree with them, I brought them up because I want to encourage thoughtful discussion of its shortcomings. What the Throne does do well is slay masses of infantry, provided there are enough of them in range, and as long as they're not high DEF, tough, immune to spells, etc. I'm fine with what the Throne does once it gets to melee, what I would most like to see in its development is the means to get it into its combat turns a little faster through tools like reposition, or provide it with some support utility to its army while making its way upfield. So your issue, really, is that it can't do everything? Also I checked and it's one of 5 melee focussed battle engine, two of which are cavalry and themed/balanced around that. The Wraith Engine is the closest comparison of the 5 and that has much fewer boxes and 2 less ARM.
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on May 24, 2017 17:10:25 GMT
I disagree with pretty much everything Cheesebeard says in regards to the Throne. I think it's in a great place and its probably going to see a lot of use in my Rhyas list and probably my Fyanna2 list. The Throne is the slowest melee battle engine at SPD 5, doesn't threaten heavies without significant buffs, has an unremarkable ranged threat of one spell without Necrophage, and offers no support to its army while making its way upfield. Those have been my talking points, and while I'm not sure how you can disagree with them, I brought them up because I want to encourage thoughtful discussion of its shortcomings. What the Throne does do well is slay masses of infantry, provided there are enough of them in range, and as long as they're not high DEF, tough, immune to spells, etc. I'm fine with what the Throne does once it gets to melee, what I would most like to see in its development is the means to get it into its combat turns a little faster through tools like reposition, or provide it with some support utility to its army while making its way upfield. You're clearly just very pessimistic, since 'doesn't thresten heavies without significant buffs' is also 'second most destructive battle engine against heavies', last time I checked. Most of them also don't support their army on the way up except the actual support battle engines. It honestly looks like you're cherry picking the best features of several battle engines and asking the throne to have all their combined power and utility.
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Post by Cheesebeard on May 24, 2017 18:40:34 GMT
So your issue, really, is that it can't do everything? It honestly looks like you're cherry picking the best features of several battle engines and asking the throne to have all their combined power and utility. I'm fine with what the Throne does once it gets to melee, what I would most like to see in its development is the means to get it into its combat turns a little faster through tools like reposition, or provide it with some support utility to its army while making its way upfield. I think what I'm suggesting is fairly simple, not "cherry picking" and not asking it to "do everything" - I just want it to get to the battle a little faster (not necessarily by increasing its threat range), and/or give it something to do while it's making its way to battle.
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Post by HereComesTomorrow on May 24, 2017 19:02:15 GMT
It has something to do. Run.
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Post by snotling on May 24, 2017 19:41:08 GMT
I have no problem with the speed, when I play it with lylyth1, my opponents come to me and with thagrosh1 it doesn't want to be out of his bubble anyways. With a 10" run and a 12" charge its threats 29" or 32" up the board in turn two. seems ok to me
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Post by HereComesTomorrow on May 24, 2017 19:50:01 GMT
I have no problem with the speed, when I play it with lylyth1, my opponents come to me and with thagrosh1 it doesn't want to be out of his bubble anyways. With a 10" run and a 12" charge its threats 29" or 32" up the board in turn two. seems ok to me Actually, on this point, if it's already too slow, why would you want to give it support abilities that would inevitably hampers its speed?
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Post by Cheesebeard on May 31, 2017 16:34:33 GMT
I have no problem with the speed, when I play it with lylyth1, my opponents come to me and with thagrosh1 it doesn't want to be out of his bubble anyways. With a 10" run and a 12" charge its threats 29" or 32" up the board in turn two. seems ok to me Actually, on this point, if it's already too slow, why would you want to give it support abilities that would inevitably hampers its speed? Some support abilities do not require an action, like the Fulcrum pulling fury off of Wolds/Veteran Leader, the Vessel of Judgment and its pile of utility, or the Wraith Engine providing its defensive buffs. Given that the only model slower than the Throne right now is the Blightbringer, being able to run up the table and still provide value to the army in front of it is a worthwhile consideration, since we have a lot of units that aren't played because they lack delivery capabilities.
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