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Post by socialirregular on May 11, 2017 16:21:10 GMT
So if it moves forward without changes: what role is the Throne fulfilling for Legion? At face value it appears to be a tank-y, infantry mulch-er. Does it go beyond that? Any real interesting synergies in faction? Anything interesting synergy from our Minion/Merc options?
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rivers
BattleBox Champ
Posts: 57
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Post by rivers on May 11, 2017 16:54:25 GMT
With the right caster it leverages enough of a threat to hard targets too (not just infantry) and can absolutely be a piece that MUST be dealt with by the opponent. Thagrosh1 for example, allows it to hit hard enough to cripple many heavies in the ARM19-20 range (taking at least a system or two out most likely), or about half a colossal, and absolutely take the beating back, I don't have my notes currently but I probably want to put up a battle report of my test of it last night (with Thags) talking about this more. I lost, but due to no fault of the Throne - just my own misplays (I'm a bit rusty coming off a couple week break).
Basically I see it as a valuable piece for forcing scenario who excels as an anti-infantry piece (the only one you'll likely need in the list), but can in a pinch contribute to softening or finishing heavy targets. It's good enough at both that your opponent likely can't ignore it. It could find a niche with any warlock who can buff either ARM or STR for it, and I'll always consider it with anyone who can do both.
It plays well with the BFS to stationary key targets, Hex Hunters who can Shadowbind things OUTSIDE the enemy's engagement range, meaning they MUST force or spend focus to shake before counterattacking, and the Sorceress who can help ensure targets from far away either flat out cannot fire on the Throne, or cause order of activation headaches if they want to do so. These are all Oracles friendly pieces (which is why I bring it up) so it really can replace a heavy beast in my opinion when you want to trade a little offense for a lot of utility and board presence.
I think it came out a lot better than I expected so far even if it's not reall what I necessarily wanted. I really enjoyed it in my match last night and I absolutely would consider it again with the right warlocks.
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Post by copperflame on May 11, 2017 20:36:13 GMT
I haven't playtested it as much as I want yet... but I really like the Throne + Bloodseer cost in Oracles, it comes up the exact points for a free solo. If it doesn't change, I can see myself getting one to have a magic focused army (I have the Hex Hunters and BFS already).
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Post by Cheesebeard on May 11, 2017 22:27:49 GMT
I haven't playtested it as much as I want yet... but I really like the Throne + Bloodseer cost in Oracles, it comes up the exact points for a free solo. If it doesn't change, I can see myself getting one to have a magic focused army (I have the Hex Hunters and BFS already). It's also a module I'm a fan of. Add in the Sorceress & Hellion for even more synergy. What we need now is a way to address anti-magic tech in a meaningful way; Baldur2 Woldwrath, for example, is a huge issue for this kind of list, or anything with Woldwyrds (they are really ridiculous, imo). At least the Druids have fallen out of favor. Usually this involves target selection – something Legion is generally pretty good at – but that is also getting challenging with the number of shield guards floating around, and more LoS blocking on the table in SR2017.
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rivers
BattleBox Champ
Posts: 57
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Post by rivers on May 15, 2017 15:16:05 GMT
The Sorceress/Bloodseer/Throne package was indeed featured in my game that I totally still need to put up here but I keep forgetting my notes to write it at lunch break. In the game it didn't actually end up doing a lot (my opponent was running 3 huge bases) but if I hadn't misplayed I would have got some work out of it and I love it on paper for the oracles benefits.
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Post by neutralyze on May 15, 2017 15:52:25 GMT
The Sorceress/Bloodseer/Throne package was indeed featured in my game that I totally still need to put up here but I keep forgetting my notes to write it at lunch break. In the game it didn't actually end up doing a lot (my opponent was running 3 huge bases) but if I hadn't misplayed I would have got some work out of it and I love it on paper for the oracles benefits. It is an awesome 25 pt package for sure. The throne as it is currently is pretty good for its points. With a damage buff it can kill armor 18 heavies in 4 attacks or kill infantry very well.
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Post by chillychinaman on May 18, 2017 5:37:03 GMT
So no changes, I think its safe to say that the Throne is in a decent place now.
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Post by Cheesebeard on May 18, 2017 15:11:34 GMT
So no changes, I think its safe to say that the Throne is in a decent place now. I think it still has some issues, specifically in the mobility department, but it's also putting a lot of weight on unboosted MAT 7 PS 16s (or one unboosted spell). There's a long thread on the Legion Facebook group going into it. Right now I think it's in an alright, but somewhat mediocre place in comparison to other battle engines and beasts at the point level. It will make it into some lists that can fix its shortcomings because of Oracles, but I doubt we'll see it much elsewhere as things currently stand.
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Post by cainuslupus on May 22, 2017 22:02:45 GMT
So no changes, I think its safe to say that the Throne is in a decent place now. I think it still has some issues, specifically in the mobility department, but it's also putting a lot of weight on unboosted MAT 7 PS 16s (or one unboosted spell). There's a long thread on the Legion Facebook group going into it. Right now I think it's in an alright, but somewhat mediocre place in comparison to other battle engines and beasts at the point level. It will make it into some lists that can fix its shortcomings because of Oracles, but I doubt we'll see it much elsewhere as things currently stand. Fyanna2, Lylyth2 & 3, Ansylonia2 don't want him. Thags1 and Vayl2 may take him. Kallus1 I don't really know. Those are our top casters. TBH he doesn't look meta bending, but very solid toolbox that can be useful with right casters/lists. It's good place to be. I don't want Legion to change into "Throne and Friends". TL;DR: Current Throne is OK. Being "just" good is the right place to be.
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on May 23, 2017 1:39:39 GMT
So no changes, I think its safe to say that the Throne is in a decent place now. I think it still has some issues, specifically in the mobility department, but it's also putting a lot of weight on unboosted MAT 7 PS 16s (or one unboosted spell). There's a long thread on the Legion Facebook group going into it. Right now I think it's in an alright, but somewhat mediocre place in comparison to other battle engines and beasts at the point level. It will make it into some lists that can fix its shortcomings because of Oracles, but I doubt we'll see it much elsewhere as things currently stand. 'issues' is fine. No one should be asking for a perfect model here. All the battle engines should have flaws and drawbacks (as should absolutely everything else in the game). The throne isn't as reliable as the ones that can boost, sure, but no battle engine is coming anywhere close to 4 melee attacks and 4 AoE spells in a single activation either.
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Post by Cheesebeard on May 23, 2017 4:09:50 GMT
I think it still has some issues, specifically in the mobility department, but it's also putting a lot of weight on unboosted MAT 7 PS 16s (or one unboosted spell). There's a long thread on the Legion Facebook group going into it. Right now I think it's in an alright, but somewhat mediocre place in comparison to other battle engines and beasts at the point level. It will make it into some lists that can fix its shortcomings because of Oracles, but I doubt we'll see it much elsewhere as things currently stand. 'issues' is fine. No one should be asking for a perfect model here. All the battle engines should have flaws and drawbacks (as should absolutely everything else in the game). The throne isn't as reliable as the ones that can boost, sure, but no battle engine is coming anywhere close to 4 melee attacks and 4 AoE spells in a single activation either. By "issues" I mean reasons that it's not a great option. Look at the Fulcrum, or the Vessel, or the AFG - they had "Issues" and were all brought up to attractive power levels. I don't know why so many Legion players are content to get a battle engine that will only see a few niche lists - this is our opportunity to say, "yeah, this is okay in a few places, but it suffers here and here, and it could improve in these ways." Yes, under ideal circumstances, rolling like a boss, it can get a bunch of sprays, but the opponent is going to see that coming. It's SPD 5, can't hide, has very limited options for threat extension, has no ability to boost anything, and has the durability of a Khador heavy for about twice the cost. There's a lot to improve there at 17 points to bring it in line either with other battle engines or with other options available in-faction.
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Lanz
Junior Strategist
Posts: 685
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Post by Lanz on May 23, 2017 7:25:41 GMT
Yes, I know what you meant by 'issues'. You seem to be of a stance that the Throne isn't good enough and needs to be pushed harder. Well, that's what CID is for, so go ahead and go there and provide your analysis with battle reports to support your assessment.
Personally, all the points you're bringing up just make me scratch my head. I don't know how you reached such conclusions, and I would disagree with several of them. But at the same time I don't care all that much either, since the throne in its current state looks fine to me, and is going into my next round of test lists for the tools it provides. If you think it needs more work, you'll have to convince PP of it.
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Post by snotling on May 23, 2017 7:29:19 GMT
I think its mobility is fine. 12" threat is more than the inf its wants to eat has (allways exceptions of course).
Its biggest problem would be a meta were no inf is played, but I see at least one Unit in most lists, and 2+ in a lot of them, in my region.
I will try one, or even two thrones with thagrosh1 (want to try him vs cryx anyway, because he can rfp ghost fleet dudes) and lylyth1 because the throne loves parasite and her feat, and she loves stuff that doesnt generate fury.
And arm 20 (22 with thags), 36 boxes may not be that special. But its not something people tech against either when facing. If I pair double throne thags or l1 with the usual fyanna list, some lists might not be able to handle both well.
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Post by ComboSmiteNick on May 23, 2017 12:26:55 GMT
My hope is that if we stay real quiet, it might make it through with that 4th initial attack. If so then I'm sold.
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Post by socialirregular on May 23, 2017 13:15:32 GMT
I've read in several places (though I have yet to see an actual quote) that the intention of PP was to get the BEs into 50% of lists. If that is true, then the Throne is a far cry away from that goal. Actually, I would think most BEs are a long ways away from that goal.
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